Ontario Effective Income Tax Rates

[andrewf]

Well, to get around the problem of disagreeing about which policies are wasteful and which are not, we can rely on evidence based policy making. Identify a policy goal, and how much it costs to achieve that goal. Then you can compare the policy to others to help determine which are good policies (assuming you agree with the goal) and which are wastes of money.

A fantastic example is the public transit tax credit. Its stated goals were to reduce GHG emissions and reduce congestion. I didn't see any stats on the latter, but there is little evidence that transit ridership has increase appreciably because of this credit, so it's unlikely there was much impact on congestion. On GHG emissions, it's been estimated that this program costs ~$10,000/tonne of CO2e emissions avoided. That's an abysmal failure and a waste because there are any number of policies that cost much less per tonne CO2e offset. Same goes for congestion/ridership.

Same goes for the ECO/Energy retrofit program. It's better than the transit tax credit, but the cost per tonne of CO2 avoided is fairly high. If CO2 reduction is a priority, it's better to let the market find the cheapest ways to reduce emissions by setting a carbon tax and varying it until you attain your desired level of emissions reductions. If you use the revenues to reduce other taxes, there should be no net negative long-term economic effect (it might even be positive, depending on which taxes you cut).

[warp]

EVERYTHING any government does will cost as least twice as much as it should , and will only work half as well as it was supposed to.

The reason is simple....they are not spending their own money....they are spending ours.

When the goverment says a project will cost, lets say, $200 Million, and they promise it will save money in the future.....RUN for the exits!!
It will ALWAYS go way over budget.....and will save nothing.

Just look around..there are examples everywhere.

Yet these politicians keep popping up.
Here's a perfect example : Bob Rae
He almost single handedly destroyed Ontario's economy as our NDP Premier in the 90's, was roundly and correctly thrown out of office , and now he's found religion and sits as a Liberal MP, and actually ran for the leadership of the Liberal Party!
He actually wanted to be Prime Minister! What a joke!

As a last thought , whats wrong with a flat tax?
The first $ 20 K is tax free...then lets say 16 % of everything else you earn.
No deductions, no credits , no bullsh*t....no social enginerring.

Somebody makes 10 times as much as you....he pays 10 times as much tax as you......where is the problem there?

Ok,,want to tax the rich? Any income over , lets say, $ 300 K he pays 30%.. satisfied?

This is a simplistic example....but there surely is such a system that would work

Next , get spending under control.
Reduce the pensions of politicians at all levels if they run ANY deficit, period.

If they need more money...make them explain why, and make them have no option but to raise taxes to do it...not constantly go into more and more debt every year.
That should stop them because they'd never get re-elected, which is a politicians first concern anyway.

We have to live within your means,,,govt should do the same.
And cut out all the handouts designed to get votes.
Thats another disgrace.

[andrewf]

That'll work just fine, warp, when you identify the 75% of government spending you want cut. 'Waste' is not an answer.

[the-royal-mail]

That'll work just fine, warp, when you identify the 75% of government spending you want cut. 'Waste' is not an answer.

It won't "work just fine" because there is no high level political will to do the right thing as warp describes, regardless if he specifies his priorities or not. Priorities are set by opportunistic politicians and lobbyists, not by those who list their wishes on an Internet forum.

[andrewf]

You're right. A more realistic option is to move to the Caymans.

[the-royal-mail]

We all need to remember that what we see today is the result of over 100 years of meddling, tweaking, adding, taking away, vote buying, cut backs etc etc. We're not operating on a clean slate and the impact of revamping the whole thing, IMO would be significant. Systems, staff, process would all need to be modified and reorganized at great expense. Ultimately if the result/goal is for us to pay less tax, the gov't will never go for it because that does not benefit them. They care about the bottom line and the lobbyists each care about their little piece. What warp suggests would probably adversely affect these numerous lobbyists even though he is right and I agree with and share his sentiment. I hope I am proven wrong but I just don't see it happening.

[HaroldCrump]

Next , get spending under control.
Reduce the pensions of politicians at all levels if they run ANY deficit, period.

It is not just the elected politicians...the entire public sector over-compensation is a huge issue.
Just in the past couple of weeks, look at the amount of dirt that has been revealed about what's been going on in Ontario and the city of Toronto.
Examples: the ON deputy health minister at the time of the e-Health scandal was given a golden handshake goodbye worth $750,000.
When questioned at Queen's Park, Mr. McGuinty, simply said that he is unable to discuss the reasons due to "privacy and HR issues".
What a load of bull.

There's also the currently underway scandal of all city councilors and TTC executives being given a free lifetime pass for the TTC.

Leaving aside scandals, the overall compensations of the public sector, including salaries, benefits, sabbaticals, pensions, perks, golden handshakes, expense accounts, etc. are absolutely insane.

The latest sunshine list and the CRA report on average income of working Canadians proves that the public sector compensation is way out of line.
It is a system that has gone berserk and is out of control.

[Toronto.gal]

You're right. A more realistic option is to move to the Caymans.

I would prefer Monte Carlo; less heat.

[Toronto.gal]

Examples: the ON deputy health minister at the time of the e-Health scandal was given a golden handshake goodbye worth $750,000.

I can understand that at times, little can be done with respect to legalities concerning severance packages, however, this idiot resigned & he got rewarded for that, I mean where is the logic for that??!!!

Someone once said to me that the government was just another welfare system [paid/supported by us], or as warp called it, the mafia.

That is why reform is so difficult and not so much because politicians disagree on the issues; they want to get paid for doing precious nothing and reforms would simply jeopardize their high paying jobs!

[HaroldCrump]

I can understand that at times, little can be done with respect to legalities concerning severance packages

I know what you mean, but in the case of elected politicians and public sector, I don't agree even with that.
If a politician or public sector bureaucrat screws up to this extent (eHealth was a > $1B fiasco), they need to be fired with cause and not be entitled to any severage pay.
All post employment perks such as free TTC passes, box seats at the ACC etc. should be reneged as well.
Don't like it - just don't work for the govt.
Go become a CEO at an investment bank where you can get million $ bonuses for losing billions, but leave the tax payers money alone.

In general, I don't understand why public sector total compensation needs to be so obnoxiously higher than private sector compensation for similar job functions.
Witness how the US, UK and other countries around the world are starting to realize this and clawing back.