Doctor's annual "fee" for "uninsured" services

[Dmoney]

If you exclude specialists the amount is much lower. It is my understanding that the median GP net income is around $125k after expenses. Yes, I think this is very low in relation to their educational requirements, responsibility, lack of benefits, and how hard they work. Compared to what senior execs make? Insulting.

I can tell you for a fact that the average GP's net income is substantially more than $125K. From my understanding, figures in this range are reflective of GP income in the USA, which believe it or not, are actually lower than here in Ontario. The reasoning is that GP's in the US can be avoided by patients going directly to specialists, whereas in Canada, you have to see the GP first. As a result, GP's in the states see significantly fewer patients, and earn less.

Most GP's in Ontario are incorporated in some way, and can write off all expenses (secretary, nurse, rent etc.) and are then taxed at corporate rates. Dividends are then pulled out of the corporation and are eligible for tax credits. Also, those who are in clinics make substantially more (aggressive billing) and pay much less overhead proportionally (common secretary for multiple docs etc.).

I do agree that when you compare the earnings of a doctor vs. many other public sector employees there is a huge disconnect. Teachers work a fraction of the hours doctors do, have half the educational credentials (not to mention you can teach with a history degree, which doesn't even compare to med school) and have no benefits. Teachers retire with a pension worth well north of a million which would require significant savings for a doctor to realize.

Yet, doctors' pay has been slashed by a reported $65K annually on average (CMA's numbers so take with a grain of salt), while teachers are complaining about a freeze for a couple of years.

[Square Root]

I could be wrong but I typed the question into google and got $124,688 for general docs in Ontario. Current data too. In any event I tnink we all agree that they are under paid. i don't think the legal form of a doctors practice is an issue, as amy professional working on their own can create a corp as the last poster described. When I was working, my associates and I made made many multiples of what doctors made and I always thought this was wrong. (Not so much what I made.....but you know)

[kcowan]

Please don't call it 'insurance'. It is NOT insurance. It is an annual charge for extra administrative services that used to be done for free. I would hate to think anyone new or green to the system would get the impression that it is an 'insurance' that they must have. It is not illegal for medical clinics to charge for administrative services, but it is illegal for them to refuse to treat you if you refuse to pay for them. Completing a report for $50 has nothing to do with treating you for high blood pressure.

It is imsurance. It is paid optionally to avoid potential real charges. Don't confuse this with compulsory items. Insurance is always optional (unless you drive a car).

[MoneyGal]

Median GP income in Ontario was just under $300K in 2009/10 - source is chart 4.1 of the same doc I linked to earlier: http://www.ices.on.ca/file/ICES_Phys...eport_2012.pdf

[Square Root]

Thanks MG. That chart is before expenses, right? If so their net income after expenses would be quite a bit lower. Any doctors in the house?

[MoneyGal]

That's just income from OHIP. After-tax income would vary widely - GP is a huge subset of the medical practice. Some GPs work in emergency rooms on staff, some will be incorporated, others work on salary for community health centres; GPs are more likely to work fewer hours/part-time, some will focus narrowly on a speciality (sports medicine, counselling) - it is very hard to generalize.

[cheech10]

I've been lurking for a while, but decided to post since I'm a physician in Toronto.

MoneyGal's numbers are pretty much right: a family MD in Toronto typically bills $300K or so (there is wide variability though). From this, deduct the office lease, administrative staff, billing agent, office supplies and expenses, continuing education costs, malpractice insurance, and our College dues, which are $60 to $100K per year in total expenses, depending on office size and sharing administrative staff, primarily. This leaves $220K or so of income, less taxes, or about $150K after tax. A good income, even in the GTA, but not exorbitant.

[Dmoney]

MG is correct in that the numbers vary a ton. I have a few GPs in my family, and gross billing numbers from $300-400K make sense. This is for private practice, which comes with office overhead (rent, secretary, supplies etc.). I can't see those coming to much more than $100K, leaving pre-tax income somewhere in the $200K-$300K range.

Have also heard that in clinics, expenses are lower (though can be higher as they are generally a % of amount billed) per doc and earnings can be much higher as the doc's time is used much more efficiently and billing is maxed out. I'm not sure if there is still a cap on GP earnings (max allowable billing on a yearly basis used to be in effect, think it might have been abolished though) but to get significantly above $400K you'd need to work like crazy or have some creative billing.

Square Root: I didn't know any profession could start a corp and thought one of the big advantages available to docs was their ability to incorporate. Also thought it was only recent that this became an option. The GPs I know recently (last 5-10 years) incorporated, and it seems that it made a massive difference in terms of after tax income.

Before the recent salary cuts, I think docs were very well paid, and the GP's I knew felt the same. Mixed bag of emotions after the cuts. Something definitely needs to be done to reduce healthcare/education/public service costs, but I'm not sure if this is the right way to do it.

[Square Root]

Thanks Dmoney. Interesting and useful.