A high percentage of new Canadians failing their citizenship test

[SW20 MR2]

I don't care too much about everyone learning Canadian history. IMO, what should be the majority of the test is to demonstrate an ability to speak the English language. It really irritates me when people come here and make no effort to integrate into society. They pretty much treat the country as a mini-<insert homeland here>. How the heck do you not speak passable English after being here for 20-30 years?

FWIW, my parents came to Canada in 1969. While we are ethnic minorities (though you could argue we're the majority in Markham, LOL), they fully integrated into Canadian society by mixing and mingling with everyone else. That doesn't mean that they've lost their culture, but it certainly doesn't hurt to interact with people from all walks of life.

[carverman]

I don't care too much about everyone learning Canadian history. IMO, what should be the majority of the test is to demonstrate an ability to speak the English language. It really irritates me when people come here and make no effort to integrate into society. They pretty much treat the country as a mini-<insert homeland here>. How the heck do you not speak passable English after being here for 20-30 years?

The danger with this is that unlike the USA "melting pot" that they have mentioned over the years to assimulate new immigrants, where you have to have have more allegiance to "one nation under God, the flag and the republic for which it stands".
Here in Canada, with the Charter of Rights and Freedoms..new immigration allows them to continue living, drawing from our social benefits and keeping to themselves in isolated ethnic communities.

The burkas/face coverings in public (by some), is one carryover example of certain religious traditions that really have no
place here in Canada, so it would seem that the fabric of society is changing slowly.

Years ago before WWI and WWII, immigrants were intergrated differently, they had to learn some English (or French) to get a job, the children had to go to either French or English public (or separate schools) and learn one or both official languages...now they don't..
they can go to their own ethnic schools, stay in their own culture, and not have to directly interact with the rest of society except for any public requirement (driver's licence etc)..and only when they want to.

FWIW, my parents came to Canada in 1969. While we are ethnic minorities (though you could argue we're the majority in Markham, LOL), they fully integrated into Canadian society by mixing and mingling with everyone else. That doesn't mean that they've lost their culture, but it certainly doesn't hurt to interact with people from all walks of life.

And this could be one of the problems in the future, that if there is a serious war requiring enlistment of men and women to serve their country in a time of crisis.
When previous generations either grew up here in Canada or were integrated into the fabric of society as a whole, and were called upon to "serve King and Country", they did so. Now, there is no longer that "tie that binds", and new immigrants can pursue their own cultural lives here and not have to deal with anything else that is for the common good of the country.

A classic example was the family from Aghanistan a few years back, where the father found a job here, and brought his family over
here. Then the father became involved with Al-Queda fund raising (before 9/11), went back to the middle east to facilitate funding,
(became directly involved with terrorist activities).

The family went on social assistance living in Toronto at the time when he went back to the middle east and then later
to Afghanistan. Then two brothers of the family (one born in Afghanistan and the other one here), also went back to
"further their cause against the UN "invasion" of their country, rather than stay here in Canada and continue life as Canadian citizens.

Both the father and older brother were eventually killed in the struggle against the UN forces (US/Canada,/Britain and other countries),
while the youngest was arrested by the US for throwing a grenade at a US army medic and killing him.
The youngest brother was a child soldier at the time..and now has been imprisoned in Guantanamo for several years charged with murder.

It's been a long legal process to extricate him out of Guantanamo and get him back to Canada to face Canadian justice,
but this is one clear example where some ethnic people immigrate here to this country and have no real plans
to become good citizens and just be happy to live here.

[Homerhomer]

As usual the immigration discussion is turning into the wonderfull immigrants who came here 50, 100 or 200 hundred years ago and the awfull poeple who come here now and do nothing but suck the money out the system, cover faces, bring their own cultures and force it upon the better poeple who immigrated before (the only difference may be that they don't kill locals just like the first white immigrants did). Classic example are terrorrists, c'mon, classsic example are poeple who want to make a better live for themselves and their families, and that's no different than almost everyone who migrated to this country over the last few centuries, and the percentage of terrorists and other crap disturbers is probably no different than the percentage of immigrants who were nazi's or other criminals who came in the past.

The better intergration from the past is nothing but fairy tale, new immigrants were always treated like a second grade citizens by the superior folks who were already born in the place, and were settling into places where the folks from their country already were, so you have Ukrainians working farms, Germans settling near Kitchener and on and on and on, the difficulties with integration is not a new phenomenon, always existed, just ask asians who built the railway how well the integration went.

[loggedout]

I was born in Canada to immigrant parents and grew up in a predominately "multi-generational" Canadian community (i.e. not in an ethnic enclave) and don't feel particularly "integrated". It's for no lack of trying, but the fact that I am visibly different from the majority means I will never be a "true" Canadian in the eyes of the majority. That's the just the way it is, I'm not complaining, I accept it as a fact of life based on our evolutionary instincts. It's not something peculiar to Canadians.

Integration to me is overrated. All that matters as a baseline for any citizen is that they respect the law, pay their taxes so that they're not a drain on society, and respect the rights of others. If I want to do that in my own ethnic enclave or not, or live as a hermit, it's no one else's business unless a crime is involved (e.g. terrorism). The focus should be on violations of law and cheating the system, not on whether I want to sit and have beer with Mr. Joe Canadian or whatever else constitutes cultural "integration".

[kcowan]

Come on H2
CM gives a specific example and you reply with platitudes. It is OK to promote your position but at least treat us to specific examples.

[Sampson]

The danger with this is that unlike the USA "melting pot" that they have mentioned over the years to assimulate new immigrants, where you have to have have more allegiance to "one nation under God, the flag and the republic for which it stands".
Here in Canada, with the Charter of Rights and Freedoms..new immigration allows them to continue living, drawing from our social benefits and keeping to themselves in isolated ethnic communities.

Neither learning one of the official languages fluently, nor learning about Canada's history will promote the transfer of 'Canadian' values. this is the inherent problem with the exam. Of course we all want new immigrants to share our values, but does a multiple choice exam really demonstrate this?

Aside from a 'value transfer' course or indoctrination, what can really be done to prevent giving citizenship to people not willing to adopt our values?

We could close the borders or bring in only people already sharing our values (read: Western World), but that wouldn't be very interesting. Part of the enjoyment of life is learning to respect others and their ways. I know I learn from diversity of experiences.

[Homerhomer]

Come on H2
CM gives a specific example and you reply with platitudes. It is OK to promote your position but at least treat us to specific examples.

Sorry, I didn't mean it to come out like that, my apologies.

My grandparents were complaining how hard they had when they were kids, walking seven miles uphill to school, then coming back seven miles (also uphill) back home, and how easy their kids have, my parents were exactly the same, I see how easy my kid has in comparison to my childhood, and no doubt he will see his chidlhood extremely difficult in comparison to his children. The history of immigration seems to be exactly the same ;-) It's simply human nature ( as loggedout pointed out).

;-)

[Toronto.gal]

There have been many Immigration Acts over the years, from Period 1 to current & all of which had different economic & other goals/needs: from getting workers/to populating the country/humanitarian reasons, etc., etc., & Carverman's post had valid points.

Were all the policies fair? Of course not; name me one country that has not have unfair policies? We had a Head-Tax on Chinese immigrants for example while other countries had it on others and on and on.

Have things changed for the better? YES and NO!

I support many of the proposed changes to Canada's immigration system.

"Economic Action Plan 2012."
http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/resourc...etter/ceap.asp
http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/resourc...action2012.asp

[Sampson]

T.Gal,

You links are very interesting and I think really highlight some of the fundamental 'issues' that have been raised in this thread.

I'm assuming all the posters are Canadian citizens, but most posts focus on immigrants 'fitting in'. If you go to your links and read into the new immigration policies, the majority focus on the economic benefit of allowing skilled and educated people to come to Canada. It seems the government allows a certain type of person into the country, but when they get their, it is not only their skills we covet, but also their desire and willingness to take on our culture.

Maybe, if we really value having immigrants who 'become' Canadian, then we need to change the policies and be much more restrictive, like Germany is. Sure, they allow workers into the country, but there is a lot of resistance towards allowing those people to stay and become German.

[Toronto.gal]

1. I'm assuming all the posters are Canadian citizens
2. when they get their, it is not only their skills we covet, but also their desire and willingness to take on our culture.
3. really value having immigrants who 'become' Canadian, then we need to change the policies and be much more restrictive, like Germany is.

1. Absolutely I am, and so grateful/proud of it! Wouldn't live/retire anywhere else on the planet [maybe just 1 winter Q].
2. What multiculturalism is all about! Couldn't imagine living in a non-multicultural country [and I have in the past].
3. I definitely agree that much more restrictions are required, but as we say, Rome was not built in one day.

In general, and in comparison to us, we know that Europe has moderate multi-cultural policies at best, though they, too, have changed their respective policies just like we have, but there is no comparison. For example, anti-Semitism in Europe, is still very much alive; disturbingly & dishearteningly high in fact, especially in these countries [as per recent surveys]: Austria/France/Germany/Hungary/Italy/The Netherlands/Norway/Poland/Spain/UK.

Canada IMO, remains at the top with respect to immigration policies [and so much more], and one of the most accommodating/tolerant countries in the world.

For those interested, here is a discussion on the proposed changes:
http://theagenda.tvo.org/episode/176...ew-immigration