BC Useless Carbon Tax Update

[dogcom]

Now that the carbon tax in BC has been around long enough we are finding out what a failure it really is, but of course I knew that right off the bat. Many here on the forum who trust government and their taxes liked it. Before starting I do realize we need taxes for health care and roads and so on but this tax is not for this and meant to cut emissions. We already have a air care program and that is the one that has taken the gas guzzlers and poorly maintained cars off the road even though I don't like it either but it really has worked.

First off the NDP love the carbon tax along with the Liberals so you know this can't be good and the Conservatives have claimed to scrap it in their provincial election platform so that is where my vote will probably go next provincial election.

Second when BC elected to tax energy consumption to finance income tax rates, tax burden was shifted from high income persons and corporations to government agencies, schools, hospitals and not-for-profit entities (who never paid income taxes but always paid all energy taxes). So BC has had to increase fees and taxes to cover this new cost of delivering public service. As usual anything the NDP likes when it comes to taxes somehow hits the poor or public sector hardest in the end. This goes in the face of all that the carbon idiots seem to cherish.

Thirdly many poor people are forced to find homes they can afford farther from the city forcing them to drive farther and pay a very high carbon tax.

Fourth BC's finance department is banking on GHG emissions jumping from 37.4 MM TCO2e in 2009/10 to 42.0 MM TCO2e in 2013/14

Fifth US airports and cross border shopping is becoming big business from people in the Lower Mainland and the Carbon Tax is a huge bonus to Washington State as it gives people another good reason to shop in the US.

So as I fully expected and most on the forum didn't, that a carbon tax would be very bad thing and wouldn't help anyone except maybe the rich and that it now gives governments especially the NDP something to play with to tax and fee the crap out of us. NDP will simply forget the revenue neutral thing and in a sly way put the screws to us as governments will. You guys in Ontario seem to like the Carbon Tax idea so could you please take it from us and thank you in advance.

[andrewf]

I'll take your points in order:

1 -- Not a valid argument. Liberals and NDP are both in favour of locking up criminals, therefore locking up criminals is bad. Awesome.

2 -- So BC is collecting taxes from itself when its organization pays carbon tax embedded in products. This was expected. The proceeds of the carbon tax were used to reduce other taxes.

3 -- Low income individuals benefit from other transfers, such as GST/HST rebate, basic personal exemption and lower income tax rates. If you think they are hard done by, you should argue for greater transfers to poor people.

4 -- BC's carbon tax is still fairly low at $25/tonne CO2e, rising to $30 shortly. It has already worked to produce a 15% decline in petroleum-based fuel use in BC since it was introduced. When you compare BC fossil fuel usage to the rest of Canada, it has been a significant improvement. You need to consider the counterfactual. If BC did not implement a carbon tax, what would CO2e be in 2013/14? Higher, undoubtedly.

5 -- You need to use some statistics about the size of the leakage. Undoubtedly there is some. A lot of it is probably due to causes other than the carbon tax, such as more competitive commercial aviation industry in the US (Ontarians drive to Buffalo to fly and get gas, and Ontario doesn't have a carbon tax), better Canadian dollar exchange, etc. How much has the leakage increased relative to other provinces?

So dogcom, are you okay with raising all the taxes that were lowered as part of the carbon tax? If you want to lower taxes in BC, why lower the carbon tax and not sales tax, income tax, etc.? Sales and income taxes cause more economic damage. Seems to me that BC's economy is doing fairly well.

[dogcom]

Air Care I believe has done all the most work to cut emissions because it really has taken the cars that used to blow smoke everywhere off the road.

Washington state would do well without the carbon tax but it really has helped them a great deal more then if it wasn't there.

Low income becomes very low income so when the NDP talks about helping the poor they do not look to helping the working poor but those under that.

[Spidey]

Really all of these programs, are nothing more than window dressing. Canada accounts for less than 2% of the global carbon emissions so we could all stop driving, heating our homes or even breathing tomorrow and it would have almost no impact. Any plan that leaves out serious restrictions by big players such as China is pointless and possibly even counter-productive as it will just shift more industry those countries with poorer environmental restrictions.

That all being said, of all the programs to cut emissions a carbon-tax is probably the most fair and productive.

[andrewf]

Air Care I believe has done all the most work to cut emissions because it really has taken the cars that used to blow smoke everywhere off the road.

Smoke is a separate issue from carbon dioxide. Smog/poor air quality is caused by the other gases in exhaust fumes (NOx and sulphur) and fine particles. Carbon dioxide by itself is relatively harmless to humans on a localized level.

Low income becomes very low income so when the NDP talks about helping the poor they do not look to helping the working poor but those under that.

So?

[andrewf]

Really all of these programs, are nothing more than window dressing. Canada accounts for less than 2% of the global carbon emissions so we could all stop driving, heating our homes or even breathing tomorrow and it would have almost no impact. Any plan that leaves out serious restrictions by big players such as China is pointless and possibly even counter-productive as it will just shift more industry those countries with poorer environmental restrictions.

That all being said, of all the programs to cut emissions a carbon-tax is probably the most fair and productive.

This is a bad argument. Canada only produces a small percentage of the world's nuclear waste. Can we start dumping it in the ocean? It's such a small amount relative to the rest of the world.

BC is showing leadership. They are proving that a carbon tax:
i) works. It has reduced emissions relative to what would have happened without one
ii) economically benign, when coupled with cuts to other taxes

BC is doing a great service to the world. I would be strongly supportive of Ontario following BC's lead. I think the rest of the world will get serious about this in time. Really, even if you think global warming is a hoax, a carbon tax is not a big deal. It does not cause much harm to the economy in the short run, and in the long run may provide economic benefits through shifting taxation from inefficient taxes to an efficient one.

[Spidey]

This is a bad argument. Canada only produces a small percentage of the world's nuclear waste. Can we start dumping it in the ocean? It's such a small amount relative to the rest of the world.

But the US, China, India, etc. are not dumping nuclear waste into the ocean. If they were, whether we did or not would probably make little difference. Any meaningful difference can only be achieved on in a global scale, otherwise the only benefit, for a tiny player such as ourselves, is our warm fuzzy feelings.

[Sampson]

This is a bad argument.

Agreed.

A few oil spills are ok, because we aren't spilling as much as those other guys.

[Spidey]

Agreed.

A few oil spills are ok, because we aren't spilling as much as those other guys.

This type of tactic is common. Those arguing against unilaterally environmental changes taken by Canada or western nations are arguing in favor of oil spills. No we're not. There should be, and are, very tight regulations in Canada regarding most of these issues. I'm sure there are areas with room for improvement. However, the point is that extremely restrictive measures that do not include many of the biggest polluters will only increase the problem by driving more industry to those locations. Any solution has to fully include countries such as China which accounts for 23% of emissions (versus Canada's 1.8%) and is increasing those emissions at breakneck speed.

[doctrine]

I am as capitalist and right wing as anybody, but I think the carbon tax is a fantastic idea, especially when its applied to lower income taxes. That gives people the choice on how to spend their money. Want to pay less tax? Find a more efficient way to travel. And the government doesn't have to legislate a solution or have a massive monitoring program. Let people figure out the best way. You don't even have to employ more bean counters. What a great system. BC has some of the lowest income taxes in the country.

Don't like it? Try moving to Nova Scotia, the land of no carbon tax and regulated gasoline. Oh, if you make $80k a year, you'll probably be paying $6,000 more in taxes, and sales tax is 15% not 12%, and everything costs more, but hey, at least you can save 10 cents a liter on gasoline.