Gaining Muscle on a Caloric Deficit

[Helianthus]

WHY?

What do you mean "Carbs are protein sparing"? The body is not going to use Amino Acids before it uses fat. It's just not going to. Why would it?

Please explain, as this is the root of all evil and the solution to this question.

Under which circumstances would the body breakdown protein (the lengthiest process that takes the most energy to do) before breaking down fat?

The body should ALWAYS burn fat before proteins unless the body has no fat left (ie, less than 8% body fat). I mean, tell me...

Fat is there for the body to use in an emergency, right? For energy in the event there is no food? (and absorption of vitamins and warmth, organ cushioning, etc. etc.) BUT, let's say there is an emergency. The body is going to burn protein before fat? How is this possible? This is what I don't understand.

How does it make any sense for the body to convert proteins and amino acids into a useable form of energy before burning fat? The heart itself is a muscle, so why would it burn protein?

Also, you would assume that in order to find food, your body would want to keep as much protein as possible to repair the muscles you may be destroying when: running after chickens, beating apart a buffalo, spearing fish or chasing a wild pig.

To address your point about carbohydrate being protein sparing, the body most prefers carbohydrates as an energy source, followed by protein, then followed by fat. The more carbohydrates you consume, the more your body shifts oxidization of carbohydrates for use as energy. As your body is using primarily carbohydrates for fuel in this scenario, it spares protein. The body prefers to store what it is most efficient at storing, which is fat. Only under rare circumstances does the body store carbohydrates as fat, and the same goes for protein. In any real world scenario, it is only fat that is stored as fat, and that is only when total caloric consumption is in excess of maintenance.

Your assumption that the body will always burn fat before protein is incorrect. If that were the case, everyone who could put together a reasonable diet, would be in immaculate shape. In periods of stress (dieting), your body releases the hormone cortisol, which signals an increase in protein breakdown to glucose by the liver, and also prevents leucine from stimulating protein synthesis by the body. There is also decreases in testosterone, leptin and IGF1 which all work to decrease fat oxidization by the body. During this period, the body shuts down caloric intensive processes, including protein synthesis, immune response, and reproductive function. It requires less energy for the body to utilize muscle tissue for energy than it does to use fat stores, and as such, the body prefers this for survival.

As partially referenced in my previous post, look in to Lyle McDonald's work. He has a bevy of free articles on his website (www.bodyrecomposition.com), which will go in to great deal explaining some of the concepts you are having difficulty with.

[KaeJS]

Do you only eat cottage cheese? Four 1 cup servings of cottage cheese gets you most of the way to your 800 calorie per day diet (maybe you can squeeze in an apple).

If you think an 800 calorie per day diet is a good idea, I'm not sure what else to say. Maybe you'd be better off avoiding the Taco Bell binges and not put your body through this stress...

Here's what I ate today, in order:

CaseinFX protein shake: 100 calories
Salmon + Rice: 350 calories
Vitamin Shake: 145 calories
Cottage Cheese: 100 calories

So far, that is ~700 calories, of which 352 calories are from protein (88grams) and the rest are from carbs and a small percentage of fat from the salmon.

I don't really think that is unhealthy.

Before I go to bed, I will more than likely have 100 more calories of cottage cheese (16grams of protein, 64 calories), 8 grams of carbs, 32 calories and the other 4 calories will be 0.4 grams of fat. Then, I will also have CaseinFX Protein before bed, which is 100 calories, 25 grams of protein.

That's a 900 calorie total with 129 grams of protein, adequate carbs, and some healthy fats. Not to mention, I got all of my vitamins. What's so bad about this diet?

[Helianthus]

How much do you weigh? When overall calories are that low, I wouldn't be having any of my meals in liquid form.

I don't mind the strategy as a whole; caloric cycling. I think your caloric intake on the low days may be too low, depending on your weight.

[KaeJS]

The more carbohydrates you consume, the more your body shifts oxidization of carbohydrates for use as energy. As your body is using primarily carbohydrates for fuel in this scenario, it spares protein. The body prefers to store what it is most efficient at storing, which is fat. Only under rare circumstances does the body store carbohydrates as fat, and the same goes for protein. In any real world scenario, it is only fat that is stored as fat, and that is only when total caloric consumption is in excess of maintenance.

The more carbs I consume, the more protein will be saved. I agree. However, it will also save all of my fat, which is exactly what I'm trying to reduce. Without a reduction in carbs, it is next to impossible to lose fat.

Only under rare circumstances does the body store carbs and protein as fat? The body will store anything as long as there is a surplus. If you eat 3000 calories of pure protein each day, you will get fat.

Are you saying a low fat, higher carb diet is the way to go?

I would think that a low carb diet is more the way to go. Yes, the body uses carbs as it's preferred source. But if it doesn't have carbs, it's going to switch to fat. If it didn't, then everyone would be fat and have zero muscle because the body would burn protein next.

In the situation you described, how would it be possible for people to become lean and ripped if the body burns protein after carbs and before it burns fat?

[KaeJS]

Right now I am 165lbs (checked this morning), 5ft 11".

I dropped down from 196lbs in January, but now I seem to have hit some sort of a plateau.

I have been bouncing between 164 and 168 for 2 weeks.

[KaeJS]

When overall calories are that low, I wouldn't be having any of my meals in liquid form.

Is there a specific reason for this, or just due to hunger?

[Helianthus]

Caloric deficit is the simple key to fat loss, not the restriction of carbohydrates. Many diets are centered around cutting carbohydrates because they are a non-essential maconutrient. The small amounts of glucose the body needs can be synthesized via other means by adaptation.

Unless you severely restrict fat consumption for extended periods of time, the body will not convert carbohydrates to fat stores. In most circumstances, the body will not store protein as fat either, although the pathways to do so technically exist. The body will store fat if there is a surplus of calories. Proteins are broken down in to amino acids, or oxidized for energy and if there is an excess, they are simply wasted. Some conversion of protein to glucose does occur, but the magnitude of the conversion required to create enough glucose, and then the subsequent, aforementioned de-novo lipogenesis is practically impossible.

I personally feel even on your low calories days you are eating too little protein.

[Helianthus]

Is there a specific reason for this, or just due to hunger?

Mostly for the purpose of satiety, I would choose to eat real food. To each his own, I guess. I would also look in to incorporating some greens in to your diet. Most studies question the efficacy of taking vitamin supplements.

[jet powder]

Thanks, moneygal

Often Iam hated @ a lot of sites, Is it wise to simplify the simple ?
I have herd some of the best market letter guys say they lose a lot of thier clients when they predict important tops & bottoms in the market because noone wants to listen to thier point of view & they get hate mail & phone calls. Then when they are rated high again for catching the top or bottom they get a large inflow of customers only to leave just before they put on a once or twice in a life time oppertunity such as shorting the top in 2007 & buying the bottom in 2009.

Few realize that the good poker player in the market is lonely because noone wants to listen to them & they often want to share thier ideas with others.

Helianthus

I have only herd one person (Mike Mentzer) say this & everyone says the complete opposite but I often wonder who is right.
According to Mentzer he says he trained over 2000 clients & after they gained 20 -30 pounds of muscle each one of them had to start consuming less calories or else they would start to get fat. The only thing he could think of that was causing this was that as a person got bigger thier volume to surface area changed so less energy was needed to keep the body warm.

Also realize as your muscles get bigger every added pound becomes less efficient then the previous one do to the angle of pull.

If einstein is correct in that time & gravity are connected I wonder if one should be concerned with gaining more muscle mass because would it not cause one to accumilate more gravity over time which perhaps accelerates ageing.

[andrewf]

Pretty sure general relativity is really relevant to human health.