Canadian Money Forum banner

The myth that Canadians have a high tax rate

16K views 83 replies 26 participants last post by  james4beach 
#1 ·
#49 ·
Any system that has a series of tax credits, benefits and clawbacks will skew the results for a particular group. Would be much better to not have any targeted programs...except maybe the safety net for those that would otherwise starve to death or be homeless. I agree with LTR that pension splitting is unfair too...for single people but if there is some light at the end of that tunnel, I suspect it won't be more than another 15 years or so that much of that largesse will disappear (as the one income families die off). Not much solace I know.

LTR, I pick particularly on OAS and GIS because the system is really f*cked up. GIS is woefully inadequate for those in need and rich people (especially middle class and above couples) don't need OAS. The fix would not be difficult if someone in Ottawa had balls.
 
#58 ·
It's hardly a myth that Canada's personal income taxes are high regardless of the quality or quantity of services.

If you're making $500k, your total taxes could easily run 60-70% of your income when you factor in everything. This is part of the reason why the best, brightest, and most motivated regularly move to the United States, and why Canada struggles to aspire beyond mediocrity and the productivity gap is rising.
 
#59 ·
Canadian tax estimator says that with 500K employment income in Ontario, you take home 267K.
An American tax estimator for California shows that with 500K employment income, you take home 298K.

With these numbers you'd take home 12% more pay in California, or 30K better off.

Now consider that in California, you face enormously higher medical costs and also much higher liabilities if you're the kind of professional who might earn 500K (say a doctor or lawyer). Between those medical costs and legal liabilities you assume in the US, it's really not clear whether you're better off in the US... despite the nominal 30K tax advantage.
 
#60 · (Edited)
I guess you didn't read what I wrote, I was talking about total taxes, not just income tax.

I've worked in the US several times and never paid for healthcare, along with the bulk of other Americans. And this doesn't even consider the quality of healthcare, only the cost to deliver, but lets not go there. Judging purely from watching a grandparent go through the Canadian system, I don't think it could be much worse in another developed country.

The paper that was posted to justify this thread is bogus and probably politically motivated. On page 3 alone, they state the average tax rate for incomes above $250k as 29%. Plug $250k into EY calculator and average rate is 39% for Ontario and this is only income tax, the total tax burden would be much higher. There's more errors all throughout even without looking that hard.

It's sad that smart people can't be more fact-based and objective. Maybe if that we're possibly we could start to create better outcomes instead of engaging in futile debates and politics.
 
#61 · (Edited)
Judging purely from watching a grandparent go through the Canadian system, I don't think it could be much worse in another developed country.
Don't know about other provinces, but healthcare is Ontario is a disaster. Before coming here in 1999, I couldn't even imagine that OHIP is so bad.

Canadian tax estimator says that with 500K employment income in Ontario, you take home 267K.
An American tax estimator for California shows that with 500K employment income, you take home 298K.

With these numbers you'd take home 12% more pay in California, or 30K better off.
Interesting why did you select state with one of the highest taxes...:) In Colorado , you take home 313K. Also , in states you can fill taxes as a family (aka income split), in Canada - no way!

btw, if Ontario is so f$%^& awesome, why did you move to Oregon?!
 
#62 ·
Interesting why did you select state with one of the highest taxes...:) In Colorado , you take home 313K. Also , in states you can fill taxes as a family (aka income split), in Canada - no way!

btw, if Ontario is so f$%^& awesome, why did you move to Oregon?!
In fairness isn't Ontario one of the highest tax rates for Canada (at least at the 500K mark?) In Alberta or BC you'd take home in the $291-$292 range, still less than Colorado but basically the same as California.
 
#64 ·
I think the bottom line in my eyes, is that if you want to argue that taxes are too high (they are) in Canada and that changes should be made, I agree.

But looking at our neighbors to the south with envy about what their taxation and government system is like, is insane. I can't see the rational argument that they get more for their tax dollars than we do for ours.

Their health care alone is the greatest example of waste in the world. They pay significant tax dollars towards it, with a huge percent of their population not being covered properly, and the rest either paying through the nose for theirs or having their company do the same. Insurance companies walk away laughing with billions.
 
#65 · (Edited)
I think the bottom line in my eyes, is that if you want to argue that taxes are too high (they are) in Canada and that changes should be made, I agree.

But looking at our neighbors to the south with envy about what their taxation and government system is like, is insane ...
+1 ... I have mentioned to people going to the US, particularly a cousin that tax rates are only part of the picture. Some stayed in the US but agreed it was far more complicated/costly than comparing just tax rates while others moved back to Canada in under a year.


There is a lot of variation among US states so a lot depends on where the job is / desired location.


Cheers
 
#66 · (Edited)
In fairness isn't Ontario one of the highest tax rates for Canada (at least at the 500K mark?)
Not really :) NS, NB, QC have even higher taxes on such income..

There is a lot of variation among US states so a lot depends on where the job is / desired location.
Looks like OR is pretty good as James is not to eager come back to "awesome" Ontario :)

I have mentioned to people going to the US, particularly a cousin that tax rates are only part of the picture. Some stayed in the US but agreed it was far more complicated/costly than comparing just tax rates while others moved back to Canada in under a year.
Maybe, but still much more people going from Canada to US than in opposite direction...
Personally, I'm not a big fan of US (maybe it will change when America will become "great again") . I don't really understand US healthcare system, but Canadian is competely sucks, for example, it's insane that if I don't want to wait 5-6 months for MRI (or my idiot GP doesn't want to give me referral) and want to pay my own money, I need to drive to US or fly to Cuba! (MRI will be done same day)...
Healthcare systems in Western Europe and Israel are much better
 
#71 · (Edited)
What James (above) said +1

My wife and I lived and worked in the US for 6 years and we did it strictly for the money. We heard from many people who lived there the horror show of their medical system. The people who were fortunate enough to have a good medical plan told us of medical situations that often went well over $100,000. Others with less plans told of fearing they would run out of coverage and go bankrupt. We worked with people who said when they retired they figured much of their pension would go to paying for their medical coverage!!!

Our plan (Blue Cross) was good and we could get almost any test we wanted but I believe care and treatment I received in Canada before and after the US was just as good and in many ways better.

And Gibor maybe it is a good thing that one can't easily get any test (e.g, MRI) you want. In the US they are rewarded for all the tests/drugs/ etc they prescrib and that drives costs up.

We have relatives/friends who recently had serious medical problems (quintuple bypass/liver cancer) and they both praise the care they are getting.

My wife and I firmly believe life in Canada is far, far better than US and we were so thrilled to return home in 2006. And that was in the Bush era - I can't imagine how miserable we would feel if we were living in US now that the idiot tRump is president. (In fact many Americans we meet in our travels only half-jockingly talk about moving to Canada
 
#72 · (Edited)
Last time I was in emergency room there was a 6 hour wait to see a doctor and 12 hours if a person needed to bed.

In my doctor's office there are signs advising patients NOT to visit emergency clinics, but to go to the emergency room at the hospital.

I am not sure what that is all about. Sparring over turf maybe.

Canada has a good system, but we need to increase funding substantially as the population ages and more people become ill.
 
#73 ·
In my doctor's office there are signs advising patients NOT to visit emergency clinics, but to go to the emergency room at the hospital.

I am not sure what that is all about. .
Interesting. I have no idea what that's all about. I haven't seen that in my doctors office.

I had occasion to use one of these clinics a year ago and it was quite good. I had a problem that popped up one day and since my doctor was all the way across town, and I would have to make an appointment, etc, etc, I thought I would test out one of these AppleTree Medical Center Clinics that was down at the end of my street at the local shopping center. I went down and registered at the desk and sat in the waiting room for a very short time and then saw a doctor who gave me a prescription for the problem and that was that. Seemed to work out OK. I can't imagine it would have been so easy at the Hospital Emergency Room. I've been there and it ain't fun.

ltr
 
#75 ·
What kind of problems have you encountered with OHIP? I've been under OHIP for most of my life.
Tons of problems!
There was a thread about my wife "adventures" with MRI.
I had fracture, GR in walked-in clinic didn't even want to send me to X-rays (just said use the ice), after I insisted and went to X-ray, same GP said "Sorry, my mistakem you have fracture, go to emergency as I don't know what to do"). I went to Milton Hostipal emergency, waited for 7 hours, at the end they did nothing and told to come next day as an orthoped doesn't work anyway. Very "nice service"!
My daughter has issues with knee , and our GP didn't want to send her to MRI, not even give her referral to orthoped... just said to use Voltaren (just wanted to suggest her to shove voltaren in her ***).
Even more, here our "specialists" cannot even properly use MRI or read results (my son's example who was diagnosed with ACL full tear, and when orthoped opened his knee - issue was completely different). Exavtly the same was with other patient.
Our GP is an idiot and we cannot get any good GP as they just don't accept new patients. Per one visit, our GP allowed to ask her only 3 questions. What a joke! OHIP is completely retarded.
When I came to Canada , I was 33 and completely healthy, I went to GP maybe 3-4 times in 7-8 first years I lived there, so I was thinking that OHIP is OK (even though I was surprised to see in Canada same devices I've seen in USSR 30-35 years ago :)). However, when you start having issues with your health, you will see how bad it it.

This is the reality of US healthcare: it usually does not cover everything. Unless you have the best health plan in America, you probably have a co-pay and will still be paying 15% (or something like that) of your bills.

And it's extremely complicated. Each health plan is designed to screw you, with caveats, exclusions, out of pocket maximums, time limits, etc... NOBODY can figure out how their US health plan works
Probably it's true, I just see how our Manulife or Sunlife is trying to screw us with paramedicals, drugs or dental.
And I said thousand time that I;m not big fan of US healthcare eighter, Healthcare in Europe or Israel (probably Australia) is much better and efficieant thatn both Canada's or US's.

if you ever have a very serious medical problem, you should probably head back to Canada ASAP and re-gain your provincial health care.
so you will slowly die while on waiting list?! Excellent alternative!

I came to Oregon for the job opportunity in my specialized field, and this company really is great. I did not move here due to higher salary.
Oh, really?! When you just moved, you were braging how salary in OR is higher than in Ontario...

I also really like the geography here: lots of forests, mountains, and ocean. It's an extremely attractive part of the world.
I know... been thereand also like it much more than plain ON...
7 years ago we were offered excellent relocation package to OR, CA ot AZ... We were very close to accept it, but because of kids, healthcare, CRA amd some other obstacles decided not to.... probably , big mistake.

If I knew how complicated the health care situation was, and how difficult it is to deal with the IRS & immigration system, I probably would be in Ontario, Manitoba, BC, or in Australia
I hear you! If I knew in 1999 what is Ontario about and what gonna be with this place in 20 years, we'd probably in Israel, US or Australia right now.
Just don't get what is your problem?! You are single and don't even have US green card.
 
#78 · (Edited)
Somehow I believe more to WHO ranking where Canada ranked 30th below not only majority of developed countries, but also below Greeece, Columbia and Morocco....
http://www.who.int/healthinfo/paper30.pdf

btw, even in link you provided Israel is on 9th place, so it support my statement that Israeli healthcare much better than Canadian one....
P.S. Business Insider looks to me like some tabloid :), for example they rank Canada's quality of life at #5 because .... Canada — This country ranks high in affordable housing. In the 2000s, Toronto and Vancouver's government rezoned all single family neighborhoods, so that homeowners could rent out extra rooms (thus increasing the amount of affordable rent available). - really?! because of our affordable housing??! Can be considered "joke of the year" :).

For me, advantages of Canada are: - relatively low level of crime and terrorism *hopefully Justin won;t have time to ruin it) and sound banking system
 
#80 ·
And Gibor maybe it is a good thing that one can't easily get any test (e.g, MRI) you want. In the US they are rewarded for all the tests/drugs/ etc they prescrib and that drives costs up.
Sorry. but you are talking nonsense... Let's won;t do any med tests and cost will be extremely low :)

btw, Onratio has private MRI, but this is exclusively for "chosen" people
MedCentra's MRI services were established exclusively for organizations in the medical, legal, corporate, WSIB, insurance, and research communities that often require MRI exams for their patients, clients or employees immediately.
Pure USSR where high-rank communist party members had special medical care
 
#83 · (Edited)
... Let's won;t do any med tests and cost will be extremely low :)
Which is why the two Tampa businessmen who had bought the gold plated HMO plan did not get diagnosed with cancer for an additional two years. Their provider deemed the cancer test too expensive so their doctor wasn't allowed to use it.

The part I couldn't figure out from the article outlining their law suit was why their aim was to get the marketing material changed instead of any damages.


The neighbour had some choice words about how when her husband was on IV, he couldn't eat for the two weeks before dying - yet the bill included full breakfast, lunch and dinner as if he was eating. Her lawyer got a bit knocked off the bill but it wasn't enough to prevent her having to sell her home, move into the trailer park and keep working on paying the debt off.


Cheers
 
#81 · (Edited)
Perhaps health service depends in part on where you live, province, city, etc. as well as on the professional services offered.

We have had some significant health issues in our family over the past few years. The health care provided has been first rate. Right down to air evac from a regional hospital to a specialized hospital.

There will always be a challenge with health services. If only because medicine is constantly changing...faster than the various health authorities can act. In our jurisdiction we have urgent care facilities. This is in between the physicians office and emerg.

My spouse was in an urgent care facility last month ago and had an immediate MRI. But, if this hand not been urgent her wait time could have been as much as a month depending on urgency. She has had a follow up MRI and two hospital specialist visits/consults within a month of her first complaint. But, her condition was deemed urgent.

Our experience is that the system will take care of you immediately if your situation is urgent. Our friends in BC had a grandchild born with a heart issue. Six or seven hours of surgery, lengthy hospital stay, constant follow up. Hate to think of this cost for an uninsured in USA. My dad had a pacemaker put in within a week in BC.

My spouse is a nurse. She is constantly amazed by how many people show up in emerg with minor issues or with issues that could have been dealt with in a more effective manner had the individual acted in a timely manner instead of waiting days to come in.

The system will never be perfect...if only because of the limitations on funding. Bottom line is that we feel that our tax rate is reasonable (and we have been in the highest marginal bracket for many years) and we feel extremely fortunate to have been born in Canada.

It is one thing to complain about things, another to whine incessantly. I guess it comes down to outlook and attitude.
 
#82 ·
We have had mixed results with BC medplan. Everything was fine until our GP died of a heart attack. Then we began a search that took a year to find a new one. She turned out to be great once we had her trained. Main problem was her reluctance to give us referrals to our existing specialists. But eventually she turned out to be better than our old GP.

But in December, she resigned while we were in Mexico. I broke my foot (3 metatarcels) in mid-April. When I returned at tha end of April with my fibreglas cast on, I went to emergency and in 40 minutes completed my screening, had a CT-Scan, and a referral to an orthopaedic surgeon. He outfitted me with a walking cast which I used for 3 weeks. Now trying to recover my lower body strength through special exercises.
 
#84 ·
We have had mixed results with BC medplan. Everything was fine until our GP died of a heart attack. Then we began a search that took a year to find a new one.
As an aside, on family doctors:

I know that finding a family doctor is a common problem in Canada (I've experienced that too), but Americans have this same problem. People at my US office constantly talk about the difficulty of finding a steady doctor. When I went looking for one in the US, I found that most of them were not accepting new patients.

Many of my US coworkers are relying on urgent care clinics for their regular medical care... much like the Canadian situation. The difference? Visit one of those in the US, and you pay $200 to $500 bucks a pop. Then you wait a few weeks, maybe months, and get an invoice in the mail, then connect it through your insurance and yadda yadda yadda ... maybe you pay out of pocket, maybe you don't.
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top