What should be included in a Basic Living.Wage? - Page 3
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Thread: What should be included in a Basic Living.Wage?

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by tygrus View Post
    Dont you mean self reliance

    Why do the worlds poorest sit in the slums of the most expensive cities. Why not move out where its cheaper and you can get a piece of land to support yourself.
    This in a nut shell. I could tell you a million cities in Canada where you can rent for a couple hundred bucks and make north of $20 as a farm hand. I did it.


  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by humble_pie View Post
    you put your finger on it.

    boyfriend of one of my children studied IT at college, has a decent well-paying quasi gummint job. But he'd much rather have been a doctor.

    he would have made an outstanding doctor imho. The thing was, in his background it was unheard of. Rural agricultural ancestors. Extremely poor. Father left school in grade 4 & was able to launch & operate - all his life - a successful meat wholesale business. The son & his brother grew up working saturdays & summers in the family business.

    studying to be a doctor was not ever within this family's ken. Not in a million years. Instead the emphasis was all Study something you can master fast, for quick entry to a well-paying white collar job by 22 years of age.

    there were several things missing from this Hurry-through-trade-school approach. The lack of money meant that the opportunity to dream, the opportunity to grow went missing.

    my daughter found out that he was musical. She gave him her 2nd violin. He took lessons. He loves the instrument. They play together.

    but no one will be able, now, to take him back to age 15 or 16 & give him that little extra space & encouragement that might have boosted him into university science, then onwards to med school. Growing up, he never heard such a voice, that such a thing could even be possible.

    these days, he sometimes watches medical shows on TV. He would have wanted to be a surgeon, he says.
    That's a great story and all, but I think I'm on the fence of working with the cards you're dealt. You can't win em all, and we will never be on a level playing field -- nor do I think that is requirement in society. Work with what you have, and if you work hard you will get there.

    My old man drove truck and supported his family of two kids. Blue collar family, old man putting in north of 60 hour work weeks. I was in every sport and class you could imagine. How? We, as a family volunteered in order to get in free. Ie. Mother volunteered to coach volleyball, so I could play volleyball. Father volunteered to coach baseball, so I could play ball. I enrolled in programs that were free, such as the cadet program. Then the scholarships started rolling in, and I was flying airplanes for free, as a lower class kid.

    There are ways to get ahead with next to nothing. There was always food and shelter, and toys. Rusty, semi broken, torn toys from garage sales.

    Everyone wants something for nothing nowadays. I was witness to the hard work of a relatively poor/lower class family and I now call my self upper middle class, while my parents retired in their 50's. I never went to post secondary, and I'm not doctor...but I certainly find myself in a good positions and feel I am very fortunate given my upbringing. Benefits? What were those? Pension? What's that? That all comes in due time if you play your hand right.

    Sure, silver plate and silver spoon feed people. I have no doubt that you were come out better ... but where is the limit?

  3. #23
    Senior Member Moneytoo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by humble_pie View Post
    boyfriend of one of my children studied IT at college, has a decent well-paying quasi gummint job. But he'd much rather have been a doctor.
    ...
    there were several things missing from this Hurry-through-trade-school approach. The lack of money meant that the opportunity to dream, the opportunity to grow went missing.
    ...
    these days, he sometimes watches medical shows on TV. He would have wanted to be a surgeon, he says.
    The tricky thing is, how to decide who "deserves" to be given the opportunity and who doesn't? One guy in my daughter's med school class came from a poor neighbourhood with full scholarship. Her best friend had to work for it since high-school, despite his "working poor" family's wishes. Not everybody's way to the med school was easy, and those who had to struggle to get there can't help it but resent the guy who came from a similar background, but got full scholarship.

    I don't know all the details of course. Other than that my daughter studies for exams with the guy who had to work minimum wages jobs to get through the undergrad - as he's even more driven than she is (and also wants to be the surgeon)

    But yeah, would be nice if more dreams could've come true...

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  5. #24
    Senior Member olivaw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tygrus View Post
    Dont you mean self reliance
    Yeah, we've done pretty well with our self reliance. But also our publicly funded education, infrastructure, health care and social safety net and some good luck. .
    If you have something to say - then say.

  6. #25
    Senior Member humble_pie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ag Driver View Post
    Blue collar family, old man putting in north of 60 hour work weeks. I was in every sport and class you could imagine. How? We, as a family volunteered in order to get in free. Ie. Mother volunteered to coach volleyball, so I could play volleyball. Father volunteered to coach baseball, so I could play ball. I enrolled in programs that were free, such as the cadet program. Then the scholarships started rolling in, and I was flying airplanes for free, as a lower class kid.


    it's interesting how you describe in your story - inadvertently, almost without noticing what you're saying - how your parents were already opening windows & doors encouragingly for you, even when you were a young boy.

    your mom volunteered volleyball coaching in case you might want to play volleyball. Your dad volunteered baseball for exactly the same reason. They got you into cadets to open more windows & doors. Not surprisingly, the flying window beckoned you through.

    some kids have nobody to open windows or doors. The way i understand marina's remark about money for education - this is perhaps not how she intended it, it's rather my take on the issue of money for education - is that the possibility of free or low-cost education to a better life can replace an encouraging parent or an encouraging aunt or uncle or godparent or grandparent (usually one of these surrogate parents can be found in a family, he or she will function even when the parents aren't there.)

    the goal of a low-cost post-secondary education is to implant godparents for kids who don't have any.

  7. #26
    Senior Member tygrus's Avatar
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    The theory around UBI is that if a persons day to day expenses are covered, that would give them time and incentive to rise to their potential.

    Unfortunately, people will probably just sit around smoking weed and playing PS4 all day.

    Thats where then you tie in the stick and carrot. If you are willing to take UBI, then there should be a social contract that you are getting educated and useful skills for the country. If not, well then you have to grab a paint brush and cover graffiti or something. You have to contribute in some way. Not everyone can be a surgeon, but everyone can help make better communities. But as you can see people who just get checks, for nothing, do nothing, and sometimes even worse like get into drugs and such. Idle hands...

  8. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by humble_pie View Post
    you put your finger on it.

    boyfriend of one of my children studied IT at college, has a decent well-paying quasi gummint job. But he'd much rather have been a doctor.

    he would have made an outstanding doctor imho. The thing was, in his background it was unheard of. Rural agricultural ancestors. Extremely poor. Father left school in grade 4 & was able to launch & operate - all his life - a successful meat wholesale business. The son & his brother grew up working saturdays & summers in the family business.

    studying to be a doctor was not ever within this family's ken. Not in a million years. Instead the emphasis was all Study something you can master fast, for quick entry to a well-paying white collar job by 22 years of age.
    My father-in-law is the son of immigrant farmers. They lived in a 1 room house they built themselves after coming over. One of 4 kids, long line of farmers from "the old country". Far from highly educated, or wealthy.

    Two of the boys, did grow up to be doctors, the daughter a nurse, and the final son took over the farm. They were sent to school by their father. My father in law actually got into trouble from his dad because he originally went into dentistry, but changed after a year. His father was mad that he'd wasted a year of school and the money it cost. All the kids were very successful.

    I suppose it still goes back to the decisions and choices people make, not to mention the sacrifices people are willing to endure and the effort they put out.
    I'm not JustAGuy (without spaces), or Donald, or <insert name here>.

  9. #28
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    People looking for low cost education, you realize that the cost of post secondary is already highly subsidized right?

    Also, have toy ever gone to look at social housing? A lot of stuff people get for "free" they actually resent and quickly trash. New parks and playgrounds are often vandalized, their homes are willfully damaged. However, things they earned themselves are usually protected and valued.

    How many "poor" people take advantage of the 13 years of free public education already provided? What is the ratio of honours students to dropouts amount the disadvantaged? If they really want further education, they are given the tools (free education to high school) and the opportunity (scholarships for good marks, or special abilities such as drama, sports, art, music, etc.). Yet they still seem to see little value.

    The solution? I don't think it's more "free" education. Talk to most students (any social standing) most say that they valued it more and treated it more seriously when they had to pay for it themselves.

    There's no appreciation for free stuff, especially if it's constantly renewed...how many of you reuse plastic cutlery when you eat fast food? How many just throw it away because you'll get another one next time for "free". No thought to the cost to produce it, little thought to the impact on the environment and surely nothing like the more expensive metal ones you had to pay for yourself.
    I'm not JustAGuy (without spaces), or Donald, or <insert name here>.

  10. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by humble_pie View Post
    it's interesting how you describe in your story - inadvertently, almost without noticing what you're saying - how your parents were already opening windows & doors encouragingly for you, even when you were a young boy.

    your mom volunteered volleyball coaching in case you might want to play volleyball. Your dad volunteered baseball for exactly the same reason. They got you into cadets to open more windows & doors. Not surprisingly, the flying window beckoned you through.

    some kids have nobody to open windows or doors. The way i understand marina's remark about money for education - this is perhaps not how she intended it, it's rather my take on the issue of money for education - is that the possibility of free or low-cost education to a better life can replace an encouraging parent or an encouraging aunt or uncle or godparent or grandparent (usually one of these surrogate parents can be found in a family, he or she will function even when the parents aren't there.)

    the goal of a low-cost post-secondary education is to implant godparents for kids who don't have any.
    Funny you see self reliance as opening doors and equate it to government handouts.

    His parents didn't take from anyone to get what they wanted, they found creative ways to achieve their goals. Yes, they did it for their children, but their solutions we achieved through their choices and their work.

    How can you say that this is the same as governments taking from his parents and giving it to someone else so that they can have the same stuff he did? It's almost insulting to compare the two.

    It would be even more insulting if the family who benefitted from the handout decided they'd rather sit around and not better themselves with it.

  11. #30
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    Growing up in small town newfoundland , I know many families including my own when the kids have to relocate to attend university and tuition cost is fractional compared to the big overall expenses.There are many young people trying to maintain a roof over their head without the luxury of living with Mom and Dad then on student loan budgets.Most of my kids friends lived at home and still owe $30,000 in student loans but I see many smart kids in small towns that cannot afford to live and study away from home so they are going to work in factories or in retail.Obviously these things need to be in case by case basis and not a blanket solution.I am one of the people who had to choose work over school due to finances but I am 50 years old now and have done very well for myself.My cousin is a professional student has a couple PHD and finally last year my aunt and uncle kicked him out of the nest so he would get a job so people like him should not receive free education .


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