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Thread: Universal basic income

  1. #161
    Senior Member sags's Avatar
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    May 2010
    People are confusing free market capitalism with aristocracies.

    Inherited wealth creates aristocracies, and is certainly not what the founders of the US sought to recreate after leaving Europe.

    Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Paine and Adam Smith railed against inherited wealth as a danger to society that impinged democracy itself.

    Herbert Hoover called the wealthy families.........the "idle rich", and Theodore Roosevelt sought to break up great family fortunes.

    The original concept was that people "owned" the land and assets while they were alive, and then they were passed back to the country for future generations. Over time, the wealthy used their power and financial influence to keep their assets all to themselves.

    The US will go full circle back to it's origins. It is just a matter of time until the current form of capitalism implodes.

    Last edited by sags; Today at 11:20 AM.
    Someone planted a tree a long time ago so I can sit in the shade.

  2. #162
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    Feb 2010
    Quote Originally Posted by bass player View Post
    It's always tough when socialist logic is applied anywhere other than to the very narrow window that some people selectively choose, isn't it?
    No, it's a strawman because no one is advocating for eliminating inequality of outcome. So, it is an example of the strawman fallacy to argue against policies that create perfect equality of outcome.

  3. #163
    Senior Member Moneytoo's Avatar
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    Mar 2014
    Quote Originally Posted by sags View Post
    The original concept was that people "owned" the land and assets while they were alive, and then they were passed back to the country for future generations.
    So this guy for example, wouldn't count on his 2M inheritance: http://canadianmoneyforum.com/showth...-money-(C-2M-) ? Or you'd have some kind of limit how much can be kept by family?

    Quote Originally Posted by Riverdale DIY View Post
    Something in the range of C$1.75-2M. It is comprised primarily of two UK properties which I have no intention nor desire to keep. This amount is after the 40% UK inheritance tax comes off the top.
    Current situation:

    Aged 50, earning $35K/year and wife earns $10K/year etc.
    Last edited by Moneytoo; Today at 11:56 AM.

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  5. #164
    Senior Member
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    Mar 2012
    Quote Originally Posted by andrewf View Post
    What bureaucracy? The existing income tax collection and refund infrastructure would serve.

    And there would be no hand-out for most people, because most people earn too much to keep anything of the UBI. The UBI is not intended to have much effect for well-off people, it is to provide an alternative for welfare/disability for those with low-income. Currently, those on welfare and disability are expressly forbidden to work, or they lose benefits. Sounds like a recipe to force people to stay at home.
    Okay, on one hand you say that the current system doesn't work because claw backs make them "forbidden to work", this right after (without actual thought being put into your statement) you say UBI will work because claw backs will take away the benefits for the wealthy. Will clawbacks not apply to the poor? Won't that make them "forbidden to work" the same as the current system?

    As for the bureaucracy, I thought some of the UBI "benefits" would be reduced bureaucracy, thus savings. Now you want them to do even more work. When I was in government it cost about $30 just to process cutting a cheque. Let's do that for 35M every month, then process the collections of it back again. Just a waste of taxpayer money.

    Let's spend millions "rebranding" welfare to UBI people will love it...typical government idea.
    Last edited by Just a Guy; Today at 12:11 PM.

  6. #165
    Senior Member
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    Feb 2010
    ^I have already explained the difference between a 50% clawback and 100% clawback (ie, marginal tax rate). The rate would apply to everyone, but a $10k UBI would be 'clawed back' for anyone earning >$20k in market income with a 50% MTR. This is not complicated.

    Saying that the existing income tax collection infrastructure would serve to manage a UBI makes no commentary on what would happen to the rest of the social welfare bureaucracy. Also, it is wrong to assume cheques would be mailed to everyone. Might as well assume it would be paid in TTC tokens sent by carrier pigeon while we are making things up.

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