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Isn't GIS really just Welfare for us geezers?

37K views 193 replies 35 participants last post by  bass player 
#1 ·
What I don't understand is why 'Guaranteed Income Supplement' isn't just part of the Ministry of Social Development and Social Innovation. I mean, let's be honest, what is it if not welfare where you don't even have to look for work? I will be eligible even though I didn't contribute in any direct way.

My grandfather worked hard all his life as a tradesman. He bought a house, raised a family and then when it came time for retirement he was mighty disappointed. The way he put it to me was: 'If you are poor you get welfare. If you are rich, you get tax write offs. But if you are lower middle class, there is nothing.' As a widower he gave away his assets so he could qualify for subsidized housing in some Rotary Club building.

He told me two other things, the first of which I ignored because I was sure I would be a millionaire by 35 and the second which I took to heart and followed to the letter:
1) "Plan for your retirement."
2) "Travel while you are young, Look at gramma and me, we started travelling at 67 and now we don't have the energy. Do it now."

So, now I am broke. But, ah, what a life I had living by the seat of my pants, operating a cash business in Canada and travelling in the winter, throughout my thirties and forties - Kashmir, Madagascar, Laos, Burma, Sikkim.

The prospect of spending any more time in Canada than absolutely necessary is completely depressing. But I now will have to to pay for my indulgences. And work more in my old age than I did in my prime of life. BTW, if given my youth to do it all over again - I wouldn't change a thing!
 
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#51 · (Edited)
how we take care of those who are less fortunate-regardless of how they got there. What is wrong with helping someone out?
"less fortunate" is other words lazy and spenders should be given not "free fish, but fishing road" :)
Not myself and not my wife gonna get GIS anyway, but we prefer this money would go not to so-called "less fortunate", but to seniors and students who unlike in other developed countries (except Canada and US) shpuld pay huge $$$ for education....

P.S. My mom who is senior is getting OAS from Israel.... just checked Canadian OAS...was very surprised that for seniors who lived 10 years in Canada, Canadian OAS 4 times less in $ than in Israel! and it's mandatory to continue living in Canada or you will get 0! (looks like socialism in Canada only when they tax us :))
 
#52 ·
OAS is social welfare that should be scrapped outright with an overhauled GIS program to support those whose family income is less than perhaps $75k. It also should not be age based. A cpl in their '50s may need GIS as much as a senior age 65 or over. We already have a CPP program that is essentially the same as Social Security in the USA and many other countries.

I agree that OAS (or its replacement) must have mininum residency requirements. After all, why should the Canadian taxpayer shell out money for someone who has not contributed to the tax base for at least 10-15 years (or more) and why should we pay it to someone who decides to live offshore? If one gets freebies from the Canadian taxpayer, spend it in Canada as well.
 
#53 ·
I agree that OAS (or its replacement) must have mininum residency requirements. After all, why should the Canadian taxpayer shell out money for someone who has not contributed to the tax base for at least 10-15 years
then tell me why Canadian resident who never worked and never paid taxes shouldget 4 times more than resident who lived in Canada 10 years and 10 years paid taxes?

and why should we pay it to someone who decides to live offshore
because he/she lived in Canada 10 years (and this is a rule in many countries), btw, if they don;t live in Canada , they won't use "free" health care
 
#56 ·
Agreed. There is a large part of society that pays GST/HST and contributes to the GDP of Canada through consumption. And per Ian, who gives a **** about systems in other countries? The point is no one should be sucking off the public teat if they don't have too. There are of course lazy bums who are leeches on society, but there are likely greater numbers who just can't function in our society to the degree they need to get above the poverty line. I don't believe in leaving those folks who have been Canadians all, or most, of their lives behind.
 
#55 ·
I certainly don't view OAS as an entitlement. And we pay lots of consumption taxes over and above income taxes.

Our system is not perfect and there will always be lots of what ifs and what abouts. Having said that, we need to focus on the 80 percent where the parameters do fit. If we focused and fussed on the exceptions we would never get anything done.

Who really cares about the social system in Isreal?

We live in Canada. Citizens in Norway receive oil royalties. That certainly does not mean that Canadians should.
 
#57 ·
who gives a **** about systems in other countries?
Common mistake... Canada, as a relatively new country, should try to implement the "best practices" from social system of other countries, not the worst ones.

There are of course lazy bums who are leeches on society, but there are likely greater numbers who just can't function in our society to the degree they need to get above the poverty line.
BS! And I'm telling you as an immigrant who came less than 20 years ago without even English, and started from the beginning considering that before Canada for 8+ years, I served in army and work in police I bet in different country. I bet that majority of immigrant would agree, that in Canada , only lazy bums or extreme spenders can't function in society (except small part who is really sick or handicapped).... imho, there are too many Canadians who were brainwashed that Canada's system is the best in thw world and no any change is needed.
 
#58 ·
I'd say we have a pretty good balance between rampant socialism in Western Europe vs the blatant capitalism free-for-all in the USA. What we need is good fiscal policy with a social conscience, i.e. balanced budgets and reduction of waste through better delivery of social programs. My view regarding immigration is that mostly we get the best of the best, i.e. people who want a fresh start and have the ambition and courage to improve their lives. But we also get a lot of sponsored family members that become a burden on society (health and welfare), and also those primarily focused on a passport of convenience to take advantage of our social systems.

That said, this discussion has gotten mostly off the rails regarding our GIS program which desparately needs improvements, but not at increased burden of the taxpayer. We need to get those who do not need financial support off OAS and re-structure that program in a major way. Will be very difficult for that to happen given seniors are now a bigger cohort than youth, and a powerful voting block egged on by a very self-interested and selfish CARP lobby.
 
#60 ·
That said, this discussion has gotten mostly off the rails regarding our GIS program which desparately needs improvements, but not at increased burden of the taxpayer. We need to get those who do not need financial support off OAS and re-structure that program in a major way. Will be very difficult for that to happen given seniors are now a bigger cohort than youth, and a powerful voting block egged on by a very self-interested and selfish CARP lobby.
You can earn $0 for your entire life and still collect full OAS benefits for as long as you live, yet some people want to punish those who paid taxes for 40 years by taking it away from them. When is enough enough? Will there ever be a time at which those who did well, earned a living, and contributed to the tax base will stop being punished by those who want to "redistribute" their income?
 
#59 ·
But we also get a lot of sponsored family members that become a burden on society (health and welfare)
Not really... sponsored family members cannot get any welfare , they need to live in Canada 10 years to start getting OAS... as majority of sposored seniors parents on local taxpayers - not many getting it at all. Also there is a limit for sponsored family members , i thing about 10K per year and they need to wait about 5-6 years before getting PR... Liberals give priority to so called syrian "refugees"...
 
#66 ·
Not really... sponsored family members cannot get any welfare
Not really. They can get welfare. The sponsor is required to sign an undertaking, promising to reimburse the Crown for any welfare paid to a sponsored relative during the period of the undertaking, which can be quite short. Some reference from the Canada immigration website is found here:

http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/information/applications/guides/5289ETOC.asp

If you spend any time reading on that site, you will see that you can be a man of straw and still be a sponsor. That makes the protection afforded the Crown by any "undertaking" more illusory than real. As well, you can easily get a job and show the required income today, then quit and resume pauper status once the sponsorship is approved.

I can turn up literally thousands of these, but here's one that crossed my desk recently:

http://www.courts.gov.bc.ca/jdb-txt/sc/17/05/2017BCSC0524.htm

It's a family law case that illustrates something repeated thousands of times across the country every year. A few selected passages (below) will give the idea:

The parties were married in China on May 19, 2009. At the time of the marriage, Mr. Yang was a resident of Canada and Ms. Zhang was a resident of China.

[2] The parties have one child, Huai Hong Yang, who is also called "Hudson". Hudson was born in China on July 3, 2010.

[3] Ms. Zhang and Hudson immigrated to Canada in June 2011.

[4] Mr. Yang says that he and Ms. Zhang separated on November 23, 2011. Ms. Zhang places the separation on March 23, 2012. There is no dispute that Ms. Zhang moved out of the family home in late June 2012.

[41] In late June, 2012, Ms. Zhang moved into a transition house. She never returned to the 105A Avenue home. Between late June and early September 2012, Ms. Zhang lived in three different transition houses. She then moved into what she characterized as "secondary transition housing" through the YWCA. She applied for and started receiving social assistance. In February 2013, Ms. Zhang moved into permanent housing, also through the YWCA.

[43] Ms. Zhang started taking ESL classes soon after she arrived in Canada in June 2011. While her English is not perfect, she became almost fluent over the next five years. Between December 2012 and June 2014 she attended school full time at an adult learning center, taking high school courses. She started working as a waitress in August 2014 earning between $700 and $800 a month, which was supplemented by social assistance benefits of about $200 per month.

So, you see? The sponsored one arrived in Canada in June 2011 and was on welfare by June 2012. In this case there is some prospect recovery by the Crown. The husband is worthless, but his parents made the mistake of getting the couple into a house in the GVA, so there's an asset there and the notion of recovery is touched upon at para. 186. But that's rare. Usually the taxpayer is on the hook. We see more cases of the indolent sponsoring the indigent. Here, even assuming some recovery of actual welfare paid out, there will be no recovery of all the "transition house", "adult learning center" and related costs.
 
#61 ·
Agreed.

It is high time that we brought back poor houses and debter's prisons. Eliminate the GIS, kick those less fortunate seniors to the curb and send them to the soup kitchens.

While we are at it, end universal medicare. We redistribute the costs of the program through our taxation system. Time for everyone to move to a pay for service program. No pay, no medical or hospital care. No money...too bad for you.
 
#62 ·
No one is suggesting such extreme measures, so would do you say that? However, the current mindset of taking more and more away from people who were successful due to hard work in order to make things "fair" is about as unfair as it gets. All that does is create an entitlement attitude and reward those who contribute nothing.

I'm fine with socialized medicine and many other shared costs. But, it has gone too far in the misguided belief that "fairness" can only be achieved by ensuring everyone has the same outcome regardless of how much they contribute. Those who work hard and are successful deserve to have more than those who don't. That's the definition of fair.
 
#64 ·
I know there was the tongue and cheek comment on poor houses and debtor's prisons, but I would like to see more subsidized necessities as a replacement for welfare.
In a perfect world, everyone would have the right to basic health care, shelter, food and clean water. If there was an efficient way to directly make all that available rather than paying someone welfare/basic income and trusting them to use those funds correctly I think we'd all be better off.

If someone knew they were guaranteed a very small (but clean and safe) place to live, basic groceries and clean water you could argue they'd have no reason to work or contribute to society. But I'm guessing most of us would still want to live someone better (bigger and/or nicer and/or better location), eat out every once in a while, buy some beer, wine, better food, buy a TV, cell phone, travel, go to concerts and sporting events, buy nice clothes etc.

This is totally idealistic and not realistic, but as robots are able to perform more and more tasks who knows what the future holds? I think a future where you're no longer working to survive but simply to determine how far beyond survival you want your l lifestyle to be is a pretty great blend of capitalism and socialism.
 
#67 ·
To answer the original question: no. I have several GICs, all but one of which yield less than 3% interest. If anything, they are barely keeping up with inflation. I hold them only as a stabilizing force against volatility in my other vestments. By no stretch of the imagination can they be called "welfare".

Spelling is important.
 
#70 ·
Not really. They can get welfare. The sponsor is required to sign an undertaking, promising to reimburse the Crown for any welfare paid to a sponsored relative during the period of the undertaking, which can be quite short.
It's nice that you give examples from court, but we sponsored my mom and my MIL ... My mom lives here 5 years and in order to get OAS (1/4 of the max amount), she needs to live here another 5 years (10 in total)... thanks God, Israel has excellent rules (live there 10 years and get full OAS regardless if you live in country or not) and she gets full OAS from Israel...
btw,i came to Canada at 33 , even if I work until 65 and pay huge taxes, my Canadian OAS will be 25% less that get my mom from Israel!
 
#72 ·
No issue with what you say about sponsored relatives eventually qualifying for a partial OAS etc. AltaRed posted that many sponsored relatives end up on welfare and you responded by saying "sponsored family members cannot get any welfare". That is incorrect.

The tenor of your posts leads me to ask, if the Canadian system is so patently unfair and inferior to the way things are done in Israel, why would your mom or anyone else who can live there come here?
 
#73 · (Edited)
It is very difficult to selectively slice off pieces of different countries tax regimes and social benefit regimes for comparison purposes.
Sometimes yes, in many cases no
Isreal sounds wonderful. It must be a difficult decision for those who are considering emigrating from Israel to Canada.
First of all it's not Isreal , but Israel.
Yes, it's a difficult decision ... and Canada does too much PR :). It's wonderful, the problem is security situation, too much muslim terrorism (and western world, include Canada, never gave a **** about it) ... but now looks like it's spreading around whole world
 
#74 · (Edited)
No issue with what you say about sponsored relatives eventually qualifying for a partial OAS etc. AltaRed posted that many sponsored relatives end up on welfare and you responded by saying "sponsored family members cannot get any welfare". That is incorrect.
What do you mean incorrect?! I cheked government website and it's written there that she can apply only after living 10 years in Canada. We have many other friends who is in the same situation.... If you know how to "trick the system", please let me know....

The tenor of your posts leads me to ask, if the Canadian system is so patently unfair and inferior to the way things are done in Israel, why would your mom or anyone else who can live there come here?
My mom came here only because we were living here.... In late 90's (when we came here),we couldn't know that "Canadian system is so patently unfair and inferior to the way things are done in Israel", not many info was on the Web and our English was too bad...
and the major reason -> see previous post
 
#90 ·
What do you mean incorrect?! I cheked government website and it's written there that she can apply only after living 10 years in Canada. We have many other friends who is in the same situation.... If you know how to "trick the system", please let me know....

My mom came here only because we were living here.... In late 90's (when we came here),we couldn't know that "Canadian system is so patently unfair and inferior to the way things are done in Israel", not many info was on the Web and our English was too bad...
and the major reason -> see previous post
Gibor, I have never done this in more than 20 years of participating on forums such as this, but I am calling you out out as full of excrement. In short, you are flat out lying. There is no "government website" that you could "chek" that says a sponsored immigrant is prohibited from applying for social assistance for 10 years. Complete and utter nonsense you are spewing. This is Canada. The welfare state. Take for example, I sponsor someone here as my wife. She cannot speak English, has no education, income or assets. I kick her out of our home one year after bringing her here and give her nothing. She goes to a government office and asks for help. Are you such a moron as to really believe that they will tell her to come back in 10 years?

So come on. Give us the url for the website you "cheked". You are not only incorrect, but you are mendacious. Prove me wrong, if you can.
 
#75 ·
Gibor, insulting us doesn't give you credibility. If you are so unhappy with the Canadian system, you and your Mom and friends truly are free to emigrate elsewhere... Really you are. Don't ever ***** about what Canada does to support landed immigrants and refugees. We are certainly top tier when it comes to welcoming new Canadians (as a percent of our population). Indeed we need young professional immigrants to keep our labour force viable. Your Mom should not be a burden on Canadian society. She is not our problem. She is your problem..especially if you sponsored her.

Firstly, there are a number of support programs available. We have universal, essentially free health care and in some provinces almos free drugs for seniors. There is GIS and refundable tax credits such as GST/HST. There are child benefits. There is subsidized affordable housing for those that do not have enough income to pay rent and eat at the same time. There is government supported retirement homes and assisted care. The list goes on.

Secondly, comparing a specific Canadian OAS program with that of Israel is a red herring. Countries decide how and where and when to provide social programs. Some have strengths in some areas, others have strengths in other areas. I could care less about Israel or any other country for that matter. My take is Canada is very generous to provide short term residents with essentially a universal form of social security. There has to be qualifying periods to make it fair to taxpayers.

But this is quite off topie. This thread is really supposed to be about the inadequacy of the GIS program and the excesses that exist in the OAS system (before benefits are clawed back) that could be used to beef up a more universal income supplement program. GIS is named Guaranteed Income Supplement for a reason and it is this program that needs to be torqued up to be more fair to a greater number of individuals.
 
#76 · (Edited)
If you are so unhappy with the Canadian system, you and your Mom and friends truly are free to emigrate elsewhere... Really you are. Don't ever ***** about what Canada does to support landed immigrants and refugees.
We lived here too long and paid too much taxes, so we're not going anywhere, don't worry :)...
Absolutely, Canada doesn't support landed immigrants and obvioulsy it's good for Canada to do PR and bring young immigrant, hence Canada didn;t spend even penny on education etc and getting taxpayer who also bringing money here ... but we don't care, we care that we have support when we retired ...
On the other hand, Canada is helping different kinds of refugees too much (again to increase PR) and we don't like it.

and bass players is correct, Canadians who worked hard and paid more taxes deserve more in retirement than Canadians who whas bumming around whole life (except living here for 40+ years) and especially more than fake refugees...
And government doesn't care about working people retirement as they ger huge government pensions and benefits...
 
#77 ·
Few of us are particularly enthused about those lazy bums, petty thieves and a-holes of our society who have leeched off the backs of the Canadian taxpayer throughout their lives but there are not many ways to prevent that. It kinda comes with the territory of a tolerant society if we are not prepared to put them on work gangs in the Arctic building roads by pick and shovel. Clearly having them begging and homeless (and I mean the lazy bums, not the mentally and physically challenged who make up much of our homeless element) presents other burdens such as excessive use of health care, social services and the like. The balance will never satisfy everyone.
 
#78 ·
Gibor, you appear have so much disdain and complaints for and about Canada's taxation regime, our social programs, and our immigration policy, plus just about everything else.

Why remain in Canada and be unhappy or complain all the time? Why not return to Israel since, from your perspective, it offers so much more to you than does Canada? You could potentially be so much happier there.
 
#84 ·
Israel may have a better senior's welfare program for someone emigrating there rather than to Canada (although I can't find info to substantiate that) but by all other rankings it is far below Canada as a place to live - that is why people move to Canada.
For example:
Best countries ranking, Canada #2, Israel #30: https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/overall-full-list
Quality of Life Index, Canada # 17, Israel #25: https://www.numbeo.com/quality-of-life/rankings_by_country.jsp
Where to be born, Canada #9, Israel #20: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Where-to-be-born_Index#2013_rankingshttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Where-to-be-born_Index#2013_rankings

I challenge anyone to find a survey that ranks Israel above Canada as a place to live (for any reason). Personal preferences are certainly allowed, but they are just that.
 
#85 ·
Gibor, that lazy twit who leeched off society for 40 years does not exist, but to the extent he/she does, yes, it is (sort of) fair that a long time Canadian resident receive OAS. The reality is that lazy twits want their cell phones, a few meals per day and a warm place to sleep, so they do work, even if only part time jobs at minimum wage. Indeed, a very significant minority likely get by with minimal income that results in minimal income tax payments, but they do pay consumption (value added) taxes. That person will also qualify for GIS because presumably that person has been homeless, or near homeless, on the streets for 40 years too with no assets accumulated. Is that fair to the majority of hard working middle class people? Probably not but none of those hard working middle class people would want to trade places with that lazy twit either.

Regardless of how fair or unfair you think it is, it is reasonable and fair that immigants do not take advantage of Canada's generosity. Just like yourself that has worked and contributed to Canadian society, there is an equal immigrant or two that has also leeched off the system and we cannot be a residence of convenience. I remember vividly the Lebanese rescue mission with froth foaming at my mouth. They took advantage of our Canadian system to have a passport of convenience, then went back to Lebanon, and then expected to be rescued when civil war broke out. I would have left them there. Canada is not a piggybank for citizens of the world.
 
#86 ·
One of the things that might be overlooked in this discussion is that Canada exists for Canadians. Or, at least, it should.

Those who come here, work for a while (probably sending a bunch of money home every month) and then leave are not what the country is about.

We talk about not having enough jobs but I have friends who were laid off and replaced with guest workers. I was too but I got another job the next day.

At some point, it would be nice if the electorate would develop an opinion on the idea of creating new welfare recipients while hiring non-canadians who typically send a high ratio of their earnings out of the country.

... And we wonder where the money goes...
 
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