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Isn't GIS really just Welfare for us geezers?

37K views 193 replies 35 participants last post by  bass player 
#1 ·
What I don't understand is why 'Guaranteed Income Supplement' isn't just part of the Ministry of Social Development and Social Innovation. I mean, let's be honest, what is it if not welfare where you don't even have to look for work? I will be eligible even though I didn't contribute in any direct way.

My grandfather worked hard all his life as a tradesman. He bought a house, raised a family and then when it came time for retirement he was mighty disappointed. The way he put it to me was: 'If you are poor you get welfare. If you are rich, you get tax write offs. But if you are lower middle class, there is nothing.' As a widower he gave away his assets so he could qualify for subsidized housing in some Rotary Club building.

He told me two other things, the first of which I ignored because I was sure I would be a millionaire by 35 and the second which I took to heart and followed to the letter:
1) "Plan for your retirement."
2) "Travel while you are young, Look at gramma and me, we started travelling at 67 and now we don't have the energy. Do it now."

So, now I am broke. But, ah, what a life I had living by the seat of my pants, operating a cash business in Canada and travelling in the winter, throughout my thirties and forties - Kashmir, Madagascar, Laos, Burma, Sikkim.

The prospect of spending any more time in Canada than absolutely necessary is completely depressing. But I now will have to to pay for my indulgences. And work more in my old age than I did in my prime of life. BTW, if given my youth to do it all over again - I wouldn't change a thing!
 
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#2 ·
What I don't understand is why 'Guaranteed Income Supplement' isn't just part of the Ministry of Social Development and Social Innovation. I mean, let's be honest, what is it if not welfare where you don't even have to look for work? I will be eligible even though I didn't contribute in any direct way.
You might want to double check your headline.

GIS ≠ GIC
 
#3 · (Edited)
All these government programs should be replaced with a universal income for everyone.

The current system is a convoluted mess of a bunch of unrelated programs that people have to navigate and government has to administer.

A lot of jobs are going to be lost to technology and there is nothing to replace them.

Governments have to start preparing for a future jobless society and what that means for everyone.

The decline of unionism and the loss of DB pensions will have repercussions felt for many generations.

The end result is a lot of people dependent on government programs for their retirement.
 
#8 ·
I agree things like OAS and GIS should be replaced with a universal minimum income for everyone, not just age and means tested. Both GIS and OAS are perverse in their application to seniors only. Too much OAS is going to rich seniors and GIS wouldn't pay the rent. All that money could be way more fairly allocated.

I don't lament the decline of unionism nor DB pensions. Employers should not be in the social welfare business. They need to stay competitive to stay in business in this country. Society is much better off with 1 million jobs at $20/hr than 10 jobs at $30/hr. What needs to happen is for more gov't support of things like a national drug plan aka New Zealand (to supplement the current health care plan) to help maintain a healthy population, more and better day care subsidization to permit hard working families to better keep their heads above water, and less consumerism (no one needs the latest smartphone or similar technology).
 
#4 · (Edited)
I'm in my 30s and everyone I know who is well off and comfortable in life has a job that is closely tied to or funded by government. Another way of saying this is, I am not aware of a single person (well one, Person F) who works in a purely private industry, who has a well paying job and is comfortable -- without government support

Person A: a manager in health care/hospital administration in Ontario ... heavily govt funded industry.
Person B: university professor ... obviously govt funded
Person C: a whole bunch of my friends at hydroelectric utilities, crown corporations - provincially funded
Person D: some federal govt employees I know
Person E: Bay Street, whose industry was bailed out and is totally back stopped by federal government: corporate welfare

Person F: the only exception, an engineer in his 60s who runs his own consulting business, though I bet if we looked into his client list, there'd be a lot of government funded money there too

My own job in the US, very well paying, is also heavily government subsidized. I'm virtually a US govt employee.
 
#20 ·
I'm in my 30s and everyone I know who is well off and comfortable in life has a job that is closely tied to or funded by government. Another way of saying this is, I am not aware of a single person (well one, Person F) who works in a purely private industry, who has a well paying job and is comfortable -- without government support ...
Is there an age limitation at play here?



Person A, B, C & D: managers for publicly trade, non-bailed out companies.
Person E: university professor ... obviously govt funded
Person F, G & H: plumbers, brick layers, electricians
Person I, J, K & H: management consultants/partners (they have only talked about working for publicly traded companies like Loblaws for the last five years but I am sure there's gov't work in there as well)
Person I: architects (would need to get their list as like the management consultants, there is both public and private).


BTW ... the furnace technician said the money was good but he felt he'd picked the wrong career so he was asking questions about getting into computers/programming.


Cheers
 
#11 · (Edited)
... But, ah, what a life I had living by the seat of my pants, operating a cash business in Canada and travelling in the winter, throughout my thirties and forties - ...
By "operating a cash business" I presume you mean you worked under the table and paid no taxes or CPP? And now I am supposed to pay for your GIS? I think I should forward your post to CRA.
 
#12 ·
By "operating a cash business" I presume you mean you worked under the table and paid no taxes? And now I am supposed to pay for your GIC? I think I should forward your post to CRA.
Can't believe anyone would actually say that kind of 'true' thing publicly. It's the ultimate in anti-social behaviour and moral conscience.
 
#14 ·
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/09/13/1-in-5-ceos-are-psychopaths-australian-study-finds/

An Australian study has found that about one in five corporate executives are psychopaths – roughly the same rate as among prisoners.

The study of 261 senior professionals in the United States found that 21 per cent had clinically significant levels of psychopathic traits. The rate of psychopathy in the general population is about one in a hundred.

Nathan Brooks, a forensic psychologist who conducted the study, said the findings suggested that businesses should improve their recruitment screening.

He said recruiters tend to focus on skills rather than personality features and this has led to firms hiring “successful psychopaths” who may engage in unethical and illegal practices or have a toxic impact on colleagues.

“Typically psychopaths create a lot of chaos and generally tend to play people off against each other,” he said.
 
#19 ·
ltr I fully understand your sentiment. I know many people that were in that tax bracket and most of them feel the same.

fwiw, for myself, I did claim my cash income under 'other income', line 104 I think it is, on the tax return, and pencilled in 'casual labour'.

Still was unable to pay into CPP though, on that income.
 
#22 ·
SAGS

What are DB pensions?

I am sure I agree with you on some things you wrote. Certainly the system is very convoluted. It is like something out of the British comedy 'Yes, Minister!'

I am looking for work in this difficult period between 60 and 65 where I am less employable but too young to go on the retirement dole. I am in fact on welfare. Have been for a few months. I am not proud of this. I have multiple chronic health issues but none serious enough to get disability. I want to at least get a part-time job but there are financial disincentives to do so.

Yes, applying for this and that program is inefficient. I have to get an office desk just to keep all the applications, faxes, letters, emails and scans of documents. I am pretty much 'on the ball' but if someone had MCI setting in, well they will miss the gravy because they just don't know about it. In the late 1970s there were all sorts of advocates helping seniors.

Beggars can't be choosers but there must be a better way.

My choice would be different than yours - for one, a flat income tax requiring no lawyers and accountants. I find it strange that the government takes away with one hand (GST) then hands it back with the other (tax refund). What occurred? Someone was paid to do this. No corporate welfare either. No monopoly corporations like ICBC (a corporation is now issuing driver's licenses and they don't even do eye tests!), and HIBC (illegal for me to hire a doctor).

There are some anomalies too. I find it very strange that own can own a 2 million dollar house, a Mercedes and still get GIS. Am I wrong here? GIS is based on income not assets, right?

I can see the attraction for State socialist system as in some Northern European countries (downside - very expensive) or the market economy system of the USA (downside, poor people die). But Canada is neither fish nor fowl. My second biggest concern (never mind my major one for now) is national debt due to interest on the money supply paid to private banks. Nobody notices that major contribution to the national debt and how that affects less public money for other programs. Not a single political party is addressing this issue. I do not know the solution and even if I did know, nobody is going to listen to me anyway.

Personally I dsilike big unions. The staff at the nursing home' my mother lives in gets their positions from seniority in the huge system rather than within the facility. There are great and poor workers but there is no community or family in-put for who gets promoted or fired. The nurses' union has an expensive public relations campaign of how they are so concerned about healthcare. I think lining their own pockets is more like it. Everyone looks out for their own self-interest. I just don't like the insincerity.

All I can do is arrange put my affairs in order, trying to make my way in the world.
 
#26 ·
You lazy, p-o-s, parasite loser a-hole. As you may guess I am offended.
I can only assume the above was directed at me, heh, after my attempt to stand on your side of the discussion.

Crack dealer, hah.
I have never once bought nor sold nor ever used crack.
I have once fallen in love with an ex-crack-head ex-whore in the past and tried to make a life with her in the past which is why this is a touchy issue with me.

It lasted 9.5 years.
In that time I've tried to extricate her from bad scenerios a number of times.
I've travelled across this country to kick down doors for her.
I've had fistfights with crack dealers and crackheads on her behalf, but after strike three she was out, this was my decision.

Calling me a crack dealer simply because you can't imagine a worker making it outside of the parameters of the law is offensive to me.

I did it, and I did it in the construction industry, the military, the forestry industry, and the agricultural industry, all through hard physical work and determination.

You want an economist to verify my thoughts? I'm sure any number of well educated fools will be happy to share an opinion.

My thoughts?
I'm now with the rest, gtf off my forum a-hole, I have no use for a parasite like you
 
#29 ·
Apologies as well, I should never have said gtf off the forum a-hole when what I probably had meant to have said was get your parasite *** the eff outa my country. My bad.

You are ofc always welcome to speak your thoughts on this forum or any other.

Of course you are not nor ever were a retailer or wholesaler in prohibited substances
Of course.. why, did somebody say something otherwise??
 
#30 ·
"Of course.. why, did somebody say something otherwise??"

Ah, you? "I have never once bought nor sold nor ever used crack."

Therefore, it looked to me as if you were saying that you thought I had written something that implied that.

We can agree to disagree on contentious points. I didn't come here to start a fight. Again, apologies for my poor writing.

I won't respond to the comment about Canada not being my country.
 
#32 ·
Yes GIS is a form of welfare. I personally think it should be changed to consider assets someone with a million dollars in the bank can collect it.

Over the next ten years the number of people collecting will go up when people retire with just CPP, OAS, I know there are people that truly need the help and may have struggled all their working lives just getting by.

I don't see why my tax dollars should go to people that have major assets.
 
#33 · (Edited)
It does seem wonky that people owning valuable assets should collect GIS, but when Harper floated a trial balloon on considering assets for GIC qualification there was a thunderous hue and cry that forced them to rapidly retreat from the notion. I don't see politicians eagerly jumping into it again soon...........if ever.

The good news is that OAS/GIS costs are not as bad as it may appear or some allege.

An actuarial study showed how durable the benefit actually is due to taxation, inflation and economic growth.

I believe the same consideration may be applied to a universal income.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/lets-debate-oas-based-on-fact-not-perception/article544494/
 
#38 ·
.....and I don't see why my tax dollars should go to lazy Canadians who wasn't able to save any pension or who wasted all their money on BS (that I see everyday)
Exactly. Spend a lifetime working hard, doing without, and putting away for retirement so that I can pay outrageous taxes to people who didn't?

But then, isn't that the very definition of socialism. Take money from those that earn it and give it to those that don't.

ltr
 
#37 ·
I can tell you this from direct observation at food banks at two in GVRD that a third of recipients are speaking Farsi or Arabic. .
Wouldn't be surprised if Canada will be called Canadian Emirates in 40-50 years from now :)

My worry is they appear to have large families and don't look like they are going to integrate soon
Sooner they will integrate you that "are going to integrate" :)
 
#45 · (Edited)
No :). It was "developed socialism" , communism was just a goal :)

And what you describing is good only in theory or in Israeli's kibbutzim :)

Social Security going bankrupt. Medicare going bankrupt. 1 in 5 families on food stamps, massive debt......and the rich get richer.
and in Canada?! CPP goes bankrupt. OHIP is a disaster (you want fast service and will to pay - go to US or Cuba). 15% of Canadians are poor....even though taxes are ridiculously high
 
#44 ·
I look at the US as the world's example of the most purely capitalist society.

And what does it look like........

Social Security going bankrupt. Medicare going bankrupt. 1 in 5 families on food stamps, massive debt......and the rich get richer.

I like Canada's balance of socialism and capitalism a lot more. Not perfect...........but closer to perfection.
 
#49 ·
True :).

I just read "
New York residents may be getting free tuition soon. Governor Andrew Cuomo has reached an agreement with lawmakers to make tuition free at public colleges for middle class New Yorkers. To be eligible for the Excelsior Scholarship, students must come from a household where their families make no more than $1,000,000 a year. Note: The state Assembly and Senate are expected to vote on the budget shortly.
Interesing, eh?! Middle class and household income up to 1M :).
Our Liberals proposed similar.... only household income up to what? 50K? Joke!
 
#50 ·
I certainly have no issue with GIS.

I will be in clawback territory when I start OAP later this year. So will DW when she starts the program.

I would be OK if the clawback was increased just as long as the delta was going directly back to increase the GIS for those that need it. I am not one of these starry eyed socialists or do gooders. I just believe that the true judge of our society is how we take care of those who are less fortunate-regardless of how they got there. What is wrong with helping someone out?
 
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