What's a millennial to do in this housing market?
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Thread: What's a millennial to do in this housing market?

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\r\n What\'s a millennial to do in this housing market?\r\n

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\r\n Living in Toronto... interest rates at an all-time low for a long time, semi-detatched and detached houses hard to come by, real estate inflated and overpriced, "bubble" is becoming more and more realistic... Vancouver is shambles. Market is crazy hot! But eager to leave home and start fully embracing the challenges and growth associated with being fully independent and responsible... no debt, in a long-term relationship... mid 20\'s with marriage in the near future, making good income (100k+ combined) but still in our mom\'s basements, living apart still after 5 years of dating (very frugally and no issues continuing to be frugal), unsure about waiting out the real estate storm...
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\nWhen do you draw the line between "stay at home and save" and "leave the nest, learn to fly and start your life" when the real estate market is on FIRE? Buying a home is still the ultimate goal, but not if it means a $600k mortgage in this inflated market... Thoughts on renting if your income allows you to save a good amount for a future home while renting? Sure savings grow faster when you\'re living at home than they would if you\'re dropping $1700/month for an apartment, but there\'s something to be said about independence and truly being a self-sustaining adult in your mid-20\'s...
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\nSecond-guessing everything before taking the next big step in life! Advice and tips for the millennials who are watching the real estate market go crazy in the GTA?\r\n
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\r\n \r\n Last edited by DollaWine; 2017-02-14 at 10:31 AM.\r\n \r\n \r\n
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    \r\n Interesting post. Sometimes I find myself in this boat as well - granted i\'m not even sure if I fall in the millennial generation while being 31.
    \nFor me, its a matter of a few things (which you have suggested). Good stable jobs with decent incomes, available capital (down payment), and the view of whether the real estate purchase is an "investment or a home".
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    \nIf you have good incomes (which yours looks appears to be maybe just above average combined) with stable jobs, but more importantly a decent down payment (20%), then possibly it \'may\' be okay for you. And if you view the Real Estate purchase more as a home than an investment purchase i believe you\'ll be more inclined to ride out the waves than looking and wondering at the value of your purchase is; not only that, your more incline to live there longer....the longer you live there, the more likely you will lose \'less\' money, and the price becomes less of a concern. Having said that I live in Edmonton, where home prices are not as inflated as Toronto. If I were living in Toronto, I\'d probably be more inclined to rent than purchase at this point of the RE cycle in Toronto. You are still very young, and time is on your side. And if you don\'t even have the 20% down, i probably wouldn\'t even consider purchasing at this point in time.\r\n
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    \r\n Save up money for your wedding first - as that is not cheap either.\r\n
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    \r\n What CrazyEights said 1000%.
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    \nAll I have to add is you should not feel pressured to leave your folks\' place. You can learn to live independently without necessarily leaving the nest. Remaining frugal is key and saving your money should be your top priority. I come from european parents and leaving the nest in your mid to late 30s or only when you marry is a very common thing. I still learned to be independant and built a hefty savings portfolio by the time I left. I was way ahead of my peers - first one to; own a car, own a house, own RE investments, own a business.
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    \nGood luck and continue on the right track!\r\n
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    \r\n re: "When do you draw the line between "stay at home and save" and "leave the nest, learn to fly and start your life" when the real estate market is on FIRE?"
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    \nUgh, unless you are making a few hundred thousand per year, and that job is stable, taking on a $600k mortgage is not smart. Just my take!
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    \nThe best thing that can happen in Canada is an interest rate spike, at least 25 basis points. It won\'t happen but it would be a great wake-up call.\r\n
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    Hidden Content - Working on a $1 million portfolio and $30k per year from it.
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    \r\n Why are you so anxious to own a house. I didnt buy my first home until I was 31.
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    \r\nGovt wont let this market go on forever, it will either correct on its own or be done forcibly like Vancouver.
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    \r\nUntil you are actually married and your career looks stable, dont worry about. Save and invest, then you will be ready to pounce when it does turn.
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    \r\nOr else move out of Toronto.\r\n
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    \r\n A lot of people have feelings very strongly on home ownership.
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    \nEspecially in Canada we have insanely high levels of home ownership and many see it as an absolute failure for an adult not to own a home at some point. That said there are some very great advantages of owning a home. While there are many good landlords, I\'d argue that there are probably more bad ones. And the good landlords tend to keep people a very long time, so they can be hard to find.
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    \nStill in places like Toronto and Vancouver the home prices are ridiculous. If you are millennial unless you have parents giving you a boatload of money or you have an extremely high paying salary (doctor, dentist, successful business owner) buying a home probably shouldn\'t be a priority, because it\'s a lot of risk, and it takes up too much of a percentage of your salary to the point where you could be working to pay your mortgage for the rest of your life.
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    \nIf you can save money by renting I would highly recommend that route.\r\n
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    \r\n Between renting a place and staying at home, I would lean towards renting a place. Just because living with your partner is sooo much better than living at your parents\'. Yes, it will cost some money, but it will let you try out living together before you get married, which is always good. I would hate to marry someone I\'d never lived with.\r\n
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    \r\n Quote Originally Posted by Spudd\r\n View Post\r\n
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    Between renting a place and staying at home, I would lean towards renting a place. Just because living with your partner is sooo much better than living at your parents\'. Yes, it will cost some money, but it will let you try out living together before you get married, which is always good. I would hate to marry someone I\'d never lived with.
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    I agree with this - live together for some time before getting married. You haven\'t proposed yet but you guys have already talked about how much the wedding will cost. You\'re considering buying a house with someone you are not married to yet. It could turn out well but also could be a disaster
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    \r\nBy renting a place you\'ll know what you guys need. What kind of a kitchen, what kind of space, condo vs. house, etc.
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    \r\nP.S. After living together with my first fiancee for a year or so it became pretty obvious that it was not going to work out.\r\n
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    \r\n One could also point out that most of our ancestors, when faced with places too expensive to live in, moved across an ocean to barren land and started a new life.
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    \nCanada is a big place, lots of opportunities all across it...no one has to remain in Toronto. Contrary to some people\'s beliefs the rest of Canada has electricity, internet, computers, cars, jobs, places to eat, places to shop, places to work (even places that pay more)...\r\n
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    \r\n For jobs, it depends on what you do. I would have a hard time working in my line of work anywhere else in Canada.\r\n
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    \r\n Curious as to what job only exists in one city in the entire world...or who would teach someone how to do a job that only exists in one city, can\'t imagine any school would offer a course, can\'t be that big of a market.
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    \nI suppose, if you\'re the primier, the other provinces wouldn\'t elect you after seeing what you did, but then again there is Notley in Alberta, so you can never say never I suppose.\r\n
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    \r\n \r\n Last edited by Just a Guy; 2017-02-15 at 12:08 AM.\r\n \r\n \r\n
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    \r\n I said Canada. Most of the companies I could work for in Canada are based in the GTA. I could do something else and get a job elsewhere, but it would be a career change.\r\n
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    \r\n Still curious as to what job is exclusive to gta...there are high finance jobs in other provinces, engineering, medicine, law, food trucks, manufacturing, import/export...
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    \nYou\'re not Rob Ford who faked his death are you?\r\n
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    \r\n Think along the lines of a specialization that large companies need (some, at least) and would tend to have centralized at the head office. Not the CEO . Not especially well-paid or requiring advanced qualifications, though it can help. I could probably get a job in Montreal, but my french is middling at best. It would be a stretch, but I could work for government, such as DND. On the other hand, in the US, there are quite a number of cities I could work. I could probably live elsewhere in Canada if I consulted and did a lot of travelling, but I would probably spend more time in Toronto on business than living \'at home\'.
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    \nIf I gave up on this particular specialization, I could work in a lot of other different management positions.
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    \nI\'m not trying to be overly coy, I just don\'t want to get too specific.\r\n
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    \r\n Quote Originally Posted by andrewf\r\n View Post\r\n
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    Think along the lines of a specialization that large companies need (some, at least) and would tend to have centralized at the head office. Not the CEO . Not especially well-paid or requiring advanced qualifications, though it can help. I could probably get a job in Montreal, but my french is middling at best. It would be a stretch, but I could work for government, such as DND. On the other hand, in the US, there are quite a number of cities I could work. I could probably live elsewhere in Canada if I consulted and did a lot of travelling, but I would probably spend more time in Toronto on business than living \'at home\'.
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    \nIf I gave up on this particular specialization, I could work in a lot of other different management positions.
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    \nI\'m not trying to be overly coy, I just don\'t want to get too specific.
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    Hmm, we have lots of large head offices in Calgary so I\'d be surprised if you couldn\'t find whatever specialized job here. Not that I would necessarily recommend moving here right now. I\'m just not sold that Toronto has that many specific opportunities not offered elsewhere.
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    \nAnyway, for myself I bought a house with my fiancee, rented out the basement to save for our wedding, but that was a different housing market. I wouldn\'t recommend that now. I agree with the majority to really think hard about how important an expensive wedding is. They get you for every little thing, and while a $30K wedding is fancier than a $10K wedding it won\'t actually affect anyone\'s enjoyment of the day or the success of the marriage. It\'s also really easy to overestimate what percentage of the people you want to invite to your wedding today you\'ll even be talking to in 5-10 years.\r\n
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    \r\n The earliest millennials would technically be 35 this year. Alot of them in the last 4 years beat their next generation to it. I know because I\'ve been studying, observing for a long time.
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    \r\nWhen Danforth East Semis were going for 550K 4 years ago, all I saw at open houses were hipsterish millennials. But they all just had a baby or were pregnant. My wife and I used to joke that they were probably condo renters from Liberty Village. What last bastion of affordability in Toronto West of Victoria Park was wiped out starting the spring of 2014 with the infamous Rhodes 3-brm semi going over 700K shattering a psychological barrier.
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    \r\nI know one Millennial couple that bought a Scarbs bungalow just 1.5 years ago for about 600K. They definitely got help from their parents and or over leveraged. Now it\'s worth over 800K. Too many Millennials I found just wanted it too close to the city , along the subway, or new up in the real burbs where it\'s also exploded. They didn\'t even remotely consider the more affordable areas of the city. And even now, that\'s unaffordable (2 bedroom row townhouse at Kennedy Stn going for at least 450K with ~300$ in monthly maintenance cost). So the newer generation, there\'s still pockets in Ajax, semis, townhouses which are relatively cheaper.
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    \r\nBut really, the time to marry, live with Parents is becoming more real and real. Just like what has happened in other parts of the world.\r\n
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    \r\n I\'m curious why everyone stays in Toronto? I can understand folks with specialized jobs or family obligations but this can\'t be the majority...
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    \r\nYou could move a couple hours away to Ottawa where salaries are comparable except you can buy a house and a rental property for less than one house in the GTA, significantly less downside risk in RE, less traffic, better hockey team etc.\r\n
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    \r\n The problem is Job availability. Toronto does have more job options. With the fall of Nortel and RIM, Ottawa job options has shrunk in scope to mainly public sector work if your a STEM worker.\r\n
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    \r\n ^Agreed, I\'m sure Toronto has the largest number of opportunities for most fields. But my personal experience has been no issues finding (tech) jobs in Ottawa and a very reasonable cost of living and great quality of life.
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    \nHere are some job searches in Ottawa...the vast majority being private sector jobs.
    \nmonster.ca - \'IT\' - 1000+ jobs, \'software\' - 948 jobs, \'hardware\' - 49 jobs, \'mobile\' - 251 jobs
    \nglassdoor.com - \'IT\' - 2165 jobs, \'software\' - 1430 jobs, \'hardware\' - 331 jobs, \'mobile\' - 469 jobs
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    \nFor reference - glassdoor results for Toronto:
    \n\'IT\' - 12945 jobs, \'software\' - 7064, \'hardware\' - 1388 jobs, \'mobile\' - 2951 jobs
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    \nSo Toronto has about 4-6x as many tech jobs as Ottawa, but about 5x the population (i.e. more people applying for these jobs).
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    \nI suspect that as the GTA becomes more and more unafordable either talent (particularly millennials) will leave or salaries will have to adjust.\r\n
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    \r\n I just joined this forum thinking the exact same thing as the OP. We are at about 150k+ combined salary, have saved enough for more than 20% down payment, and if need be, can get a bit of help from the bank of mom and dad.
    \r\n
    \r\nI\'m 29 living with my gf in a condo, haven\'t proposed yet, but plan to within the next few months.
    \r\nI\'ve been sitting on the fence, just watching real estate prices inflate year over year and people kept telling me about this bubble that\'s inevitably going to burst and just wait.
    \r\nJust in the past 3 years alone, prices haven\'t changed dramatically. It would have made so much sense, in hindsight, to leverage myself up even when I was making less money and had less savings, to get anything and ride it out to make massive capital appreciation that my salary wouldn\'t even come close to providing me in the same time frame.
    \r\n
    \r\nNow my to-be in-laws are telling me, don\'t wait any longer cause I\'ve already lost out so much and that Toronto isn\'t the type of city that will ever depreciate.
    \r\nMy personal thinking is that there might be a slowdown or minor market correction, but the prices won\'t ever drop/crash since the government needs to facilitate that change slowly whether it\'s with interest rate hikes/mortgage tightening rules/foreign buyers tax etc.
    \r\n
    \r\nFrom reading these posts, it sounds fairly unanimous that we should just sit here and wait until that correction/crash comes. Unlike OP, we\'ve already been living together for nearly 3 years in her condo. If we bought a new place, that condo would then become a rental unit to ideally offset her mortgage. I understand that the fundamental economics to support these prices aren\'t there, but I think that holds more true if you view Canada as a closed economy. There are so many foreign buyers that have tons of money to drop on places that they view are still relatively cheap compared to what they could buy in their home country. Say the BoC does raise interest rates, buyers slow down, home owners with mortgages get pushed beyond their means, foreclosures start happening and the bubble burst we\'ve all been waiting for happens. The people that get hurt the most by this are those millennials that bought into this crazy market with mortgages up to their necks. The foreign buyers now see Canada as EVEN cheaper and continue to flood the market which will somewhat sustain housing prices. After what Vancouver did, now everyone from China is flowing over to Toronto. Keep in mind how many wealthy buyers there are from China where interest rates/mortgages don\'t affect their buying power at all. Sure there are stats saying it\'s not actually foreign buyers, as they only represent x% of sales volume, but what that doesn\'t show is the number of properties bought using a proxy like a local but still using foreign money.
    \r\n
    \r\nI really regret not entering the market several years ago as the sound advice given to me then is exactly the same as what\'s being suggested now...to rent and wait out the crash. Just how much longer should we wait...what if waiting ends up pricing me out of the market...from being able to afford a detached home in a reasonable location a few years ago, and now being downgraded to townhome in a similar location now. What\'s next, wait 3 years and find myself paying the same to get into a condo?\r\n
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    \r\n Here is the thing: you can\'t predict the future with any degree of certainty. It\'s a game of probabilities. There are several scenarios which may or may not materialize, each impacting Toronto housing market differently. Some of the factors:
    \n
    \n- Government changing rules (e.g. BC style foreigner tax).
    \n- Banks imposing additional mortgage requirements to cut risks.
    \n- Inflation going up, pushing interest rates up.
    \n- Inflation going down, pushing interest rates down.
    \n- Oil price going up, boosting incomes.
    \n- Oil price going down, cutting incomes.
    \n- NAFTA falling apart, leading to job losses.
    \n- US economy booming, leading to job gains.
    \n- China imposing further capital controls.
    \n- Increase in construction
    \n- Speculative stream ending based on recent forecasts from industry experts and the banks.
    \n- Impact from increases in immigration under the Trudeau government.
    \n- Things I haven\'t thought of.
    \n
    \nYou should really assign a probability and consequence to each of the above events and look at the resulting event tree. Thats a lot of guessing meaning that the outcome is highly uncertain.
    \n
    \nHaving said this, the risk of the downside is higher than the other way around. You can see that by simply counting the "for" and "against" and looking at the scope for the downside vs upside in interest rates.
    \n
    \nIn the end of the day decision on buying a home should be primarily based on living requirements rather than investment considerations. If you plan to stay long term (>10 years), short term price movements will be less important. And the downside can be reduced by a prudent selection of location.\r\n
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    \r\n Quote Originally Posted by stryder1587\r\n View Post\r\n
    \r\n
    I just joined this forum thinking the exact same thing as the OP. We are at about 150k+ combined salary, have saved enough for more than 20% down payment, and if need be, can get a bit of help from the bank of mom and dad.
    \r\n
    \r\nI\'m 29 living with my gf in a condo, haven\'t proposed yet, but plan to within the next few months.
    \r\nI\'ve been sitting on the fence, just watching real estate prices inflate year over year and people kept telling me about this bubble that\'s inevitably going to burst and just wait.
    \r\nJust in the past 3 years alone, prices haven\'t changed dramatically. It would have made so much sense, in hindsight, to leverage myself up even when I was making less money and had less savings, to get anything and ride it out to make massive capital appreciation that my salary wouldn\'t even come close to providing me in the same time frame.
    \r\n
    \r\nNow my to-be in-laws are telling me, don\'t wait any longer cause I\'ve already lost out so much and that Toronto isn\'t the type of city that will ever depreciate.
    \r\nMy personal thinking is that there might be a slowdown or minor market correction, but the prices won\'t ever drop/crash since the government needs to facilitate that change slowly whether it\'s with interest rate hikes/mortgage tightening rules/foreign buyers tax etc.
    \r\n
    \r\nFrom reading these posts, it sounds fairly unanimous that we should just sit here and wait until that correction/crash comes. Unlike OP, we\'ve already been living together for nearly 3 years in her condo. If we bought a new place, that condo would then become a rental unit to ideally offset her mortgage. I understand that the fundamental economics to support these prices aren\'t there, but I think that holds more true if you view Canada as a closed economy. There are so many foreign buyers that have tons of money to drop on places that they view are still relatively cheap compared to what they could buy in their home country. Say the BoC does raise interest rates, buyers slow down, home owners with mortgages get pushed beyond their means, foreclosures start happening and the bubble burst we\'ve all been waiting for happens. The people that get hurt the most by this are those millennials that bought into this crazy market with mortgages up to their necks. The foreign buyers now see Canada as EVEN cheaper and continue to flood the market which will somewhat sustain housing prices. After what Vancouver did, now everyone from China is flowing over to Toronto. Keep in mind how many wealthy buyers there are from China where interest rates/mortgages don\'t affect their buying power at all. Sure there are stats saying it\'s not actually foreign buyers, as they only represent x% of sales volume, but what that doesn\'t show is the number of properties bought using a proxy like a local but still using foreign money.
    \r\n
    \r\nI really regret not entering the market several years ago as the sound advice given to me then is exactly the same as what\'s being suggested now...to rent and wait out the crash. Just how much longer should we wait...what if waiting ends up pricing me out of the market...from being able to afford a detached home in a reasonable location a few years ago, and now being downgraded to townhome in a similar location now. What\'s next, wait 3 years and find myself paying the same to get into a condo?
    \r\n \r\n
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    \r\n
    Alot of people have regrets, even existing home owners like myself. Though the wife bought it when we were dating many years ago, I was eyeing properties in undervalued areas (Scarborough) for along time. I had no debt, making 70+ K for the 5+years. But didn\'t pull the trigger due to being risk adverse, having kids, etc. You also have to consider that you making more money now with your spouse is also because of the inflationary environment. I have friends in higher finance pulling in about 200K but even can\'t look to buy. That\'s because the very thing that has increased the income and job situation in Toronto is also part of the global force that has led to the skyrocketing home prices here.
    \r\n
    \r\nAlso, your gf wife-to be has a condo. There are now bidding wars for condos, so also consider yourself more fortunate than others. It also has undoubtedly increased in value. If you do plan to rent it out, rents have also increased. Either way, this extreme credit fueled inflation to get us out of the crash of 08-09 has actually resulted in huge market distortions and a loss of purchasing power when it comes to housing here. The risk takers were rewarded (as designed in a low interest rate, easy credit situation). I personally would suggest you look for something that you think you would be comfortable raising kids in. There are still cheaper places mainly in the east GTA. Even Scarborough. But you\'d definitely have to also consider housing types that isn\'t right away \'turn key\' or typically desirable home.\r\n
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    \r\n My suggestion: for investment, hold on. for your own inhabitant , buy it as early as possible.
    \r\n-' + '-' + '- From a Chinese.
    \r\n
    \r\nI bought my first condo in 2012 in DT and sold it to buy a townhouse in Bayview village in 2015. In 2016, I sold my townhouse and now, I am trying to buy a detached home in Newmarket, and yesterday I lose the bid again(7 times this year). The winner was not Chinese, so I figure, why do I go to non-Chinese forum to see how other buyers think about this market, and how eager they would make offers these days.
    \r\n
    \r\nWhen I go through this post, honestly, i checked back and forth to make sure, this post and replies are in 2017, not 2014.I am not an expert in real estate, I just write down what I see and know.
    \r\n
    \r\nFrom 2012 to 2017, I saw the richest buyers are not from China but other countries like Russia, Iran and middle east. And, Chinese prefer its own communities, Markham, Richmond hill, now Aurora, Oakville (richer ones). New immigrants from China are rich and willing to purchase big houses, no doubt. But it hurts people like me, Chinese-Canadian, barely you guys, because you dont want to live in Chinese communities, like it never hit me to live in Little Italy or Greek town or Brampton.
    \r\n
    \r\nCheck North York, check midtown, who is building those 3,4 million houses on the ground of 1 million land they just purchased a year ago. the builders, the government, who make the most portion of the hit market? foreign buyers? seriously? Maybe Vancouver, but not the case in Toronto. Refugees(40k last year only), rich immigrants (fr political unstable countries, riches protect their wealth), small builders (buy, flip and sell, quick money), government(tax), are the major players to push the market increase, not foreigners from China.
    \r\n
    \r\n
    \r\nI am not helping Chinese to defend, I am just telling you something that no one tells you, at least no media in Canada will tell you, that Chinese Government restrict its citizens\' money going out to buy other country\'s property. If you are a Chinese and you are sooooo rich, like you have $1bil Chinese currency in Chinese bank, you want to buy a 1mil house in Canada, no way, because you dont even have $200k CND downpayment. You say ok, can I exchange some? Can not! case close. But you are seeing Chinese buying houses around you, and media say so too. Yes, but they are immigrants, have the same right to buy as you do.
    \r\n
    \r\nTORONTO IS BECOMING A BIG INTERNATIONAL CITY. THE HOUSE PRICE WAS TOO LOW BEFORE. It is making balance to the other international cities like London, Sydney, Tokyo and Beijing. Because Toronto is top best city to live in this whole world! Everyone is wanting to live here. That is why.
    \r\n
    \r\nOh, and green belt. But I love green belt i think it is necessary to exist.
    \r\n
    \r\nIf you dont see the truth(more people coming, less land to build houses) about this market, who is buying, who is winning, where the money come from, is it sustainable, you will not make correct decision, buy or wait. you will still put your hope on the government to increase the tax on foreign buyers. If so, the target is wrong, the price will keep going up, till you can not even afford a condo.\r\n
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    \r\n "Everyone wants to live here" is a nice theory.
    \n
    \nIn reality, the population growth rate in Toronto (census to census) between 2011-2016 is the slowest the metropolitan area has experienced in at least 40 years.
    \n
    \nAnd yet, the house price growth rate in the same time period (census to census) is by far the highest in 40 years.
    \n
    \nhttp://www.macleans.ca/economy/econo...es-so-what-is/\r\n
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    \r\n Quote Originally Posted by ericho\r\n View Post\r\n
    \r\n
    My suggestion: for investment, hold on. for your own inhabitant , buy it as early as possible.
    \n-' + '-' + '- From a Chinese.
    \n
    \nI bought my first condo in 2012 in DT and sold it to buy a townhouse in Bayview village in 2015. In 2016, I sold my townhouse and now, I am trying to buy a detached home in Newmarket, and yesterday I lose the bid again(7 times this year). The winner was not Chinese, so I figure, why do I go to non-Chinese forum to see how other buyers think about this market, and how eager they would make offers these days.
    \n
    \nWhen I go through this post, honestly, i checked back and forth to make sure, this post and replies are in 2017, not 2014.I am not an expert in real estate, I just write down what I see and know.
    \n
    \nFrom 2012 to 2017, I saw the richest buyers are not from China but other countries like Russia, Iran and middle east. And, Chinese prefer its own communities, Markham, Richmond hill, now Aurora, Oakville (richer ones). New immigrants from China are rich and willing to purchase big houses, no doubt. But it hurts people like me, Chinese-Canadian, barely you guys, because you dont want to live in Chinese communities, like it never hit me to live in Little Italy or Greek town or Brampton.
    \n
    \nCheck North York, check midtown, who is building those 3,4 million houses on the ground of 1 million land they just purchased a year ago. the builders, the government, who make the most portion of the hit market? foreign buyers? seriously? Maybe Vancouver, but not the case in Toronto. Refugees(40k last year only), rich immigrants (fr political unstable countries, riches protect their wealth), small builders (buy, flip and sell, quick money), government(tax), are the major players to push the market increase, not foreigners from China.
    \n
    \n
    \nI am not helping Chinese to defend, I am just telling you something that no one tells you, at least no media in Canada will tell you, that Chinese Government restrict its citizens\' money going out to buy other country\'s property. If you are a Chinese and you are sooooo rich, like you have $1bil Chinese currency in Chinese bank, you want to buy a 1mil house in Canada, no way, because you dont even have $200k CND downpayment. You say ok, can I exchange some? Can not! case close. But you are seeing Chinese buying houses around you, and media say so too. Yes, but they are immigrants, have the same right to buy as you do.
    \n
    \nTORONTO IS BECOMING A BIG INTERNATIONAL CITY. THE HOUSE PRICE WAS TOO LOW BEFORE. It is making balance to the other international cities like London, Sydney, Tokyo and Beijing. Because Toronto is top best city to live in this whole world! Everyone is wanting to live here. That is why.
    \n
    \nOh, and green belt. But I love green belt i think it is necessary to exist.
    \n
    \nIf you dont see the truth(more people coming, less land to build houses) about this market, who is buying, who is winning, where the money come from, is it sustainable, you will not make correct decision, buy or wait. you will still put your hope on the government to increase the tax on foreign buyers. If so, the target is wrong, the price will keep going up, till you can not even afford a condo.
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    Selling in 2016 was a big mistake. You should have bought first, then sold. Especially in a rising market. Chances of getting a detach are unlikely. Now what is it about NewMarket that you wanted?\r\n
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    \r\n I can provide a bit more context to some points of Ericho\'s post. Specifically about the case of Chinese currency leaving China. The government has mandated that they can only take out 50k usd per year. This is one factor that will slightly ease the effect of "rich foreign Chinese buyers". This applies to the Chinese immigrants that have landed in Canada to live here as well, as their parents can\'t give them unlimited cash anymore.
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    \nI read somewhere that on Chinese real estate listing websites that there\'s a huge push to buy in Toronto, cause we\'re relatively undervalued, especially now that Vancouver is not a good deal for them. Somebody translated a message to the effect of "If you don\'t buy now, you will cry later".
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    \nFor those waiting for the crash, I don\'t think it\'s coming. 20% yoy growth definitely not sustainable and will slow down, but I doubt that massive crash is coming unless interest rates spike more than 3% all of a sudden.\r\n
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    \r\n Quote Originally Posted by stryder1587\r\n View Post\r\n
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    For those waiting for the crash, I don\'t think it\'s coming. 20% yoy growth definitely not sustainable and will slow down, but I doubt that massive crash is coming unless interest rates spike more than 3% all of a sudden.
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    I think a recession would probably trigger a crash, even if interest rates stayed at their current levels.\r\n
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    \r\n Quote Originally Posted by Just a Guy\r\n View Post\r\n
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    Canada is a big place, lots of opportunities all across it...no one has to remain in Toronto. Contrary to some people\'s beliefs the rest of Canada has electricity, internet, computers, cars, jobs, places to eat, places to shop, places to work (even places that pay more)...
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    I second this thought.
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    \r\nIn the nearest little town to me, Bancroft, one can get for $200,000 what would cost north of $1M in Toronto. A teacher might earn 5% less than TDSB teacher, that is pretty much the same. Said teacher in Bancroft could walk to at least 4 schools from anywhere in Bancroft, that is get by without 2 cars quite easily.
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    \r\nIn summary, a single teacher salary around here long term results in a likely better financial future than a dual teacher family in Toronto buying a >$1M house and owning 2 cars. The reality is that the teacher/teacher or teacher/police offices families up here with $200,000 annual income can live like absolute royalty. (I don\'t know how some of them still manage to live paycheck to paycheck, but they do.)
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    \r\nFor consideration ...
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    \r\n I\'m a millennial and I\'m not buying. Even if I wanted to live in a house, I could just rent one.
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    \r\n"Owning" a home isn\'t really owning one, when you have a massive mortgage that goes along with it. It\'s just renting by a different name, though admittedly it gives you more freedom and power to do what you want with the home.\r\n
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    \r\n You can rent a decent place in Toronto for much less than $1,700. You don\'t have to live in a CONDO. There are plenty of apartments and low rises that rent for $1000 - $1200 for a one bedroom and are close to downtown. We had a place at Bathurst and St.Clair for $950. Start small and see how it goes. I waited until 24 to move out of my parents house and it was far too long. Do it now and start living life as an adult. Its been 6 years and I still rent and save lots of money. I moved from Toronto to Vancouver, and now to interior BC to follow the lifestyle that I want. If I bought a house or condo in Toronto, these moves would have been a major headache.\r\n
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    \r\n Agreed, Toronto has some very affordable rent, and in good locations. Toronto is a very liveable city with quite reasonable cost of living. I highly recommend living right in the downtown core.\r\n
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    \r\n Well, if I look back at my life at that time, housing prices were indeed much lower, but the interest rates were much, much higher, making payments almost the same. Job prospects were nearly non-existent, unemployment was high...of course, nothing like the problems being faced today.
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    \nPersonally, I would have loved to move into a nice house, or at least a prime apartment located in a great area...but that wasn\'t in the cards. I started off with a good apartment in an okay area, and got roommates. I started my first company and worked hard to build it. Eventually, as things started to take off, I upgraded apartments, but still needed roommates. Then I bought a small house, also with roommates...all while working on building my company.
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    \nEventually, things started getting traction, company made money, married one of my roommates, still had another roommate for a few years and did whatever it took to make it work.
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    \nToo many people seem to want their cake and eat it too, instead of finding a way to gather the materials and learning to cook for themselves.\r\n
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    I\'m not JustAGuy (without spaces), or Donald, or <insert name here>.
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    \r\n Thanks for the tips guys. CrazyEights you\'re definitely right about saving for a wedding. She has a huge family (And loves to plan ahead even though I haven\'t even proposed yet.. haha), we expect it to cast upwards of $20k. We\'re in no rush to buy a house because she hasn\'t broken into her field yet (teacher), so she doesn\'t know which part of the city she\'ll end up working in. So it would be a bad idea to buy a house in Ajax for example only to find out in 2 years she gets offered a full-time position in Mississauga...
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    \nMortgage u/w, we don\'t necessarily feel pressure to move out. None of our friends really have. But they\'re also all either not making good money, in student loan debt, or both. We\'re making pretty good money for our age, both very frugal and both debt-free with emergency money saved up. We want to rent - this real estate market isn\'t attractive at all. We\'re just unsure about rent + save a good amount or stay home + save a GREAT amount. Ontop of that, there\'s the whole social/emotional side of it. Like I mentioned, we\'ve been dating for 5 years but have never lived together... there\'s certain strains and things we haven\'t been able to fully experience yet because we live apart.
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    \r\n Quote Originally Posted by My Own Advisor\r\n \r\n
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    Ugh, unless you are making a few hundred thousand per year, and that job is stable, taking on a $600k mortgage is not smart. Just my take!
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    Agreed... we have no interest in taking on a massive mortgage so early in our lives/careers. It\'s scary that so many young people are eager to rush into houses when they\'re overvalued and can barely squeak in with 5% down. I wake up every morning with fingers crossed that interest rates went up a bit... a market correction is sooooo needed right now. We have NO interest in signing up for that... our dilemma is more renting vs stay at home.\r\n
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    \r\n Quote Originally Posted by CrazyEights\r\n View Post\r\n
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    Save up money for your wedding first - as that is not cheap either.
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    If you\'re spending more on the wedding than you expect in gifts (cash/in kind), I would suggest paring back. In 20 years you are not going to regret having a more modest wedding.\r\n
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    \r\n Quote Originally Posted by andrewf\r\n View Post\r\n
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    If you\'re spending more on the wedding than you expect in gifts (cash/in kind), I would suggest paring back. In 20 years you are not going to regret having a more modest wedding.
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    \nTrue that, no one remembers your center pieces, decor, flowers, etc...\r\n
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    \r\n I agree with Just A Guy. I work in the downtown core, but I sure as hell won\'t move to Toronto. The prices are outrageous and I afford a much better life even with the commute into work. I still come out well ahead of some co workers living within walking distance paying outrageous prices for a shoe box stacked on shoe boxes.
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    \r\nMy advice..... Don\'t live in the GTA.\r\n
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    \r\n A comment on the wedding....a but unconventional but my wife and I dumped every cent we had into a down payment for our first house, then saved for our wedding, which occurred 3 years later. We had never lived together before, and she had only ever lived with her parents.
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    \nSmall wedding, less than 5K, and because we knew exactly what we needed, we asked for cash in lieu of gifts. We ended up generating enough cash to pay for our honey moon.
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    \n13 years after buying our house, our mortgage is paid off and we still have great memories of our wedding and honeymoon.
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    \nUnconventional, but we had the blessing of our family and I wouldn\'t change anything.\r\n
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  • \r\n'; pd[1513977] = '\r\n
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    \r\n Quote Originally Posted by stryder1587\r\n View Post\r\n
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    Agreed, a recession would trigger job loss. But where\'s this recession going to come from?
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    A debt crisis could do it. Many high level bank execs - including CEOs - have expressed concerns about housing prices the last few weeks. The US has just hiked their rates, and more are expected to come. This should affect fixed mortgage rates in Canada - they should increase. Canadians are already close to their limits, with a debt to income ratio at 170%. If banks become more risk averse, they will tighten credit. If Canadians borrowing power is reduced, they will stop spending and will focus on debt reduction. This could very well trigger a recession.\r\n
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  • \r\n'; // next/previous post info pn[1468450] = "1513977,1468482"; pn[0] = ",1468450"; pn[1468482] = "1468450,1468498"; pn[1468498] = "1468482,1468522"; pn[1468522] = "1468498,1468562"; pn[1468562] = "1468522,1468594"; pn[1468594] = "1468562,1468618"; pn[1468618] = "1468594,1468674"; pn[1468674] = "1468618,1469497"; pn[1469497] = "1468674,1469537"; pn[1469537] = "1469497,1469561"; pn[1469561] = "1469537,1469593"; pn[1469593] = "1469561,1469689"; pn[1469689] = "1469593,1469705"; pn[1469705] = "1469689,1469713"; pn[1469713] = "1469705,1470121"; pn[1470121] = "1469713,1480370"; pn[1480370] = "1470121,1486713"; pn[1486713] = "1480370,1487065"; pn[1487065] = "1486713,1487553"; pn[1487553] = "1487065,1488537"; pn[1488537] = "1487553,1488561"; pn[1488561] = "1488537,1498361"; pn[1498361] = "1488561,1501450"; pn[1501450] = "1498361,1501546"; pn[1501546] = "1501450,1501618"; pn[1501618] = "1501546,1502282"; pn[1502282] = "1501618,1502561"; pn[1502561] = "1502282,1470089"; pn[1470089] = "1502561,1469098"; pn[1469098] = "1470089,1469321"; pn[1469321] = "1469098,1469345"; pn[1469345] = "1469321,1468602"; pn[1468602] = "1469345,1468586"; pn[1468586] = "1468602,1468610"; pn[1468610] = "1468586,1469074"; pn[1469074] = "1468610,1470041"; pn[1470041] = "1469074,1469833"; pn[1469833] = "1470041,1469529"; pn[1469529] = "1469833,1513977"; pn[1513977] = "1469529,1468450"; // cached usernames pu[0] = guestphrase; pu[310042] = "DollaWine"; pu[323618] = "CrazyEights"; pu[276641] = "Mortgage u/w"; pu[51968] = "My Own Advisor"; pu[45528] = "tygrus"; pu[45993] = "Just a Guy"; pu[303497] = "CalgaryPotato"; pu[40435] = "Spudd"; pu[290] = "cashinstinct"; pu[5118] = "andrewf"; pu[53917] = "james4beach"; pu[8614] = "lifeliver"; pu[2605] = "Saniokca"; pu[300569] = "madmoney"; pu[56581] = "Ag Driver"; pu[327650] = "hboy54"; pu[334938] = "mossman1"; pu[49690] = "protomok"; pu[46034] = "afulldeck"; pu[335201] = "stryder1587"; pu[317122] = "mordko"; pu[335682] = "ericho"; pu[462] = "rebel_ins"; pu[18649] = "carverman"; pu[130884] = "FinancialPanther"; pu[333866] = "internalaudit"; pu[319810] = "redsgomarching"; // -->

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    1. #28
      Member
      Join Date
      Apr 2009
      Location
      Toronto
      Posts
      41
      Quote Originally Posted by stryder1587 View Post
      For those waiting for the crash, I don't think it's coming. 20% yoy growth definitely not sustainable and will slow down, but I doubt that massive crash is coming unless interest rates spike more than 3% all of a sudden.
      I think a recession would probably trigger a crash, even if interest rates stayed at their current levels.

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