Lending 300k to parents

[Causalien]

It is to buy land in a foreign country. My father used the parent card. Meaning that if he screwed me on this one, I have repaid my debt to him as a son in this life.

Damned if I do, damned if I don't. What do you guys think? Any previous experiences that you can share about potential outcomes?

[Karen]

Has it already been done, Causalien? Or are you asking for opinions on whether you should lend your parents the money?

It's one thing to lend your parents a reasonable amount of money to cover an unexpected emergency, but to buy a $300,000 foreign property and expect you to finance it sounds so bizarre as to make me wonder if your parents are developing some form of dementia.

[Eder]

I would lend him the down payment providing I am holder of a second mortgage on the property.
Otherwise NO!

[Causalien]

It hasn't been done yet.

[humble_pie]

cause i think most of the replies are going to be Don't Do It. And yup, mine is a DDI.

it's my casual observation that when they get around to asking family for money, it's because nobody else, absolutely nobody else, will give them any money at all.

moving on, perhaps the real thread should be about how to gracefully turn pappy down without any ill will, furore, flying feathers, fanfare or hints of future problems in the family relationship.

karen ? toronto.gal ? moneygal ? you guys are good at this.

[leoc2]

It is to buy land in a foreign country. My father used the parent card. Meaning that if he screwed me on this one, I have repaid my debt to him as a son in this life.

Damned if I do, damned if I don't. What do you guys think? Any previous experiences that you can share about potential outcomes?

Can you contribute a portion of their request based on sharing this burden with your brothers, sisters, and their grand children?

Motto = don't go it alone....??

[Karen]

My personal answer if it were my parents would be to say "no" to lending them the money (but then, they would never have asked). I would explain that it was too much money for me to be able to overlook if they were unable to repay it, and that my relationship with them is too important to risk doing anything that could cause me to resent them.

But, as I said, that would be my personal approach, and I can be a pretty blunt person when I think it necessary. Causalien obviously is at least considering lending the money, and I'd like to know more before I'd offer any more advice. Do his parents already own a home in Canada? Why do they think they deserve a house in a foreign country when they can't afford to buy it for themselves? Have they carefully considered the legal and tax aspects of buying in a foreign jurisdiction? Is Causalien wealthy enough to be able to afford to lose $300,000? Has he lent his parents large amounts of money in the past and have they repaid it in a responsible way?

I wouldn't even ask these questions if it were me, but maybe he's a much wealthier person who could do it if he wants to.

[donald]

Your in "debt" to your dad because he decided to have a offspring and your suppose to feel guilty because he raised you?

You dont owe your dad anything,even if he is half joking i wouldnt find the humor in it.Your not responsiable for your dad and either is he to you re money.

Id see your dad being the "cold" one here and not you if you turn him down.

[mind_business]

Does he have the resources to pay $300,000 back without selling the property? If not, consider it a gift, not a loan. That way you won't be disappointed. If you can't afford it, or need the money later, don't do it. He should understand.

[humble_pie]

(a quebec joke) it's common in quebec to start a spoken sentence with "Ecoute," which is the 2nd person singular familiar imperative form of the verb to listen. It translates literally as a command: "Listen."

in french the imperative nuance has diappeared from colloquial Ecoute, so an accurate translation of Ecoute's true sense would be something like a friendly "Hey."

but many french speakers in quebec don't realize this, so when they speak english they frequently annoy anglophones by ordering them to "listen."

20-year-old son of a friend of mine grew up in both languages. Lives half his life in french. He recently wrote a memo that went: "Note to self: Do not begin communication to boss with the word Listen."

so this long story is by way of saying to causalien: Do not start refusal communication to pappy by saying Listen.

[Causalien]

Right, More info.

NO, they don't have enough liquidity to pay it back immediately. It'll be a span of 3 years. Yes, their whole asset base is enough to cover it, but not without selling assets. No they do not have asset in Canada anymore. It's a cash deal and it's for their retirement. Yes, the bank will lend them money, so it's not because their credit is shot. I provide cash for the land, the bank provide money for the actual house that will be built.

For my conscious, I owe this much to someone who raised me and since they used the parent card, the relationship is already strained. I didn't think they'd ask me, but they did so here I am. I disagree with what some of you said about not owing them anything for raising me and am trying to improve the relationship. My immediate starting point were like you guys. Assuming right away that I'd be screwed by my parents. But these are my parents and my conscious won't leave me alone whenever I considers the No option and once I start off from the assumption that they won't screw with me. The situation looks different.

Of course, if this goes to hell so goes the relationship. So, I am considering this, because if I refuse, the relationship is definitely going to hell, if I don't, then there's still a chance.

Yes, I already tried the soft no approach about how big of a burden this will be to my life, which is when they used the parent card. Yes, I have this amount of money, but doesn't mean I'd come out unscathed. I'll have to get back to a mind-dumbing normal job.

My siblings are aware of this and have expressed their willingness for support the cost if shit goes down. Parents are very old and there won't be much time for us to spend together. I know it sounds incredulous, but this is part of the reason I am considering it.

The legal and tax side is not a problem since they have multiple citizenships including that country.

I guess this is enough info. Please ask for more if I leave out anything. And also, any stories from people who actually faced this question from your parents and denied/agreed to the deal?

[ddkay]

I've loaned about $60K to my parents in different time periods during the last few years because of last minute emergencies, they have a habit of miscalculating their available balance and tying up all their money in non-redeemable GICs, of course they give back and usually do give a lot more when they can. It's the least I can do after all I do still eat sleep and live under their roof

Luckily they haven't had to borrow so much that my entire account is sucked dry and have to reorder my lifestyle

I haven't saved up as much as you, but if there was no other option like selling temporarily unnecessary assets, I would give as much as I could so they could meet their goal... situations like this can be tense whether you take red or blue, but I guess all the best relationships are about sacrifice

[Cal]

Do you have any other details.

Is it for a vacation property, are they selling their home here, what are their financial tendencies, would it be a property that you would use too...?

[jamesbe]

Wy do they need so much money? Are they buying a mansion? Why would they need a huge place or fancy place? Seems odd ...

[Causalien]

I wont' be using the property since it's in a country that I don't visit often. It's for their retirement home. Yes it's a mansion. Their final splurge in their life so to speak. We grew up poor and this is the first time they splurged.

A friend of mine said. When all is said and done, you'll have to clean up whatever they leave behind. So whether or not I use it, doesn't matter.

Thanks ddkay for your story. Can you tell me more about what went on in your mind when they asked? The interactions? What, if anything, went wrong? How do you recover from it?

[humble_pie]

what a bittersweet story. You are a good son, causalien.

it's a big issue so i don't think fast improvised shots fit the bill. What about everybody take the weekend & try to come up with some good ideas.

i get the feeling parents are longing to retire to the homeland & this new house would be a dream house for them. The longing may be unreasonable, even unrealistic, but nevertheless it powerfully exists. Interfering with this dream or disrupting it could carry a severe price tag. Could both damage the family relationship & at the same time cause this OP to feel conscience-stricken.

OP says he has tried a soft no which didn't work. Now believes a definite no would topple the family relationship into hell. Here, obviously, is where the siblings could help out. Sometimes it is necessary to repeat no many times.

also to discuss w the siblings: what is it about building & living in the new house in the other country - which is possibly the homeland, the country of origin - that these parents crave so dearly ? what alternative could satisfy these deep cravings ? would just going to live in the other country relieve some of the cravings ? can less expensive/affordable housing be arranged ?

it does not sound as if the OP has got an extra 300k to throw away like an expensive birthday gift watch. My personal bias is that it is not right for any elderly parents, from any culture wheresoever, to blackmail an adult child for so much money.

[Cal]

The first time they have splurged, or the first time they have decided to spend outside of their capabilities, and use their childs money?

I think I live a little too practically to understand...they want to move back home and make it look like they are richer than they are, to what cause....impress relatives, friends, look successfull. I can't tell from the info you have posted if they want to live a lie on your dime.

Or do they think the property will increase in value and you will inherit more from it? Are they generally good w money? Investments and such.

Do you have the $, or would you have to sell some assets to come up with the $?

Sucky situation for you either way. I would prefer to invest my own money, as opposed to have my Dad do it for me.

[Karen]

Causalien, I do understand your desire to improve your relationship with your parents, and I agree that we do owe our parents something if they need help. But this is not an emergency; it is something they simply would like to do, and it's not your responsibility to enable them to do it. Keep in mind that if you go ahead with this, you could be risking the relationship even more since you don't know how it will turn out.

I hesitate to say this, and I hope you understand that I don't want to sound unkind, but, as I said in my last post, I can be blunt when the situation calls for it, and if I'm going to give advice at all, I have to say what I really think. I simply cannot imagine loving parents asking such an incredibly huge favour of you and even putting emotional pressure on you to do as they ask. In my opinion, that is completely unacceptable, and, if I were you, I would be feeling used and taken advantage of by them. If you were an extremely wealthy person, the situation might be different, but in your circumstances, I would tell your parents what I suggested in my last post and continue to behave in a loving, caring way with them, no matter what their reaction.

It's one thing to be a loyal, loving son; it's quite another for you to be expected to take on financial risks that rightly belong to your parents. They have no right to ask that of you.

[ddkay]

Not a lot went through my head because it's almost regular, they simultaneously pull the rug from under my older brother lol. I've always been repaid in full and with like 99% certainty within a year because of maturing GICs, just a matter of not having enough short term cash on hand when closing investment deals (ultimately for our family any way), and I'm willing to lend w/o interest unlike the bank

Of course when you have less certainty of repayment it makes it a harder decision, but maybe you can decide on collateral, I mean face it, they don't need two houses.. if something goes wrong you've got to be able to sell one of them and recover as much as possible

[donald]

Karen is spot on.This is riduculous....so backward co-dependency.Your not a millionaire....and dear old dad wants you to loan him 3 extra large?Your going to play with your financial standing because your loving dad expects this from you?....You have a sad state of affairs here....

[humble_pie]

karen cause is, i believe, Eldest Son from a culture so foreign & so ancient that we here, born & raised as we were in plain old down-to-earth canada, can hardly begin to understand its intricate weight of family honour & veneration of ancestors.

this is precisely why your perspectives & your advice are so insightful & so valuable. They are a breath of fresh air. More than a breath. A steady stream of oxygen straight off the prairies where you mentioned you were born.

causealien we're all here in 2011 in north america. Your parents have a fantasy from another land, another culture. Part of it can probably come true. But no child should ever have to sacrifice his life to enable his parents' fantasy.

how could your parents be made content with just part of the fantasy.

btw did anybody ever read the novels of Wayson Choy. Karen you'd love them, he's from vancouver. Believe it or not i read that we even had the same lit prof at UBC ! someone who left a huge mark on Choy's life, not so much on mine, because my big writing wakeup call was getting to journalism school later on.

anyhow Choy writes in his novels about the same themes that causalien is dealing with.

[londoncalling]

I'd like to throw in a possible compromise that may not necessarily allow both parties to win but prevent a loss. This is based on a similar experience I am familiar with through a coworker. He experienced a similar scenario where his parents wanted to have a large retirement home in a foreign land.

His circumstances may differ in a few ways. He had the support of another sibling and a very stable relationship with his parents. He said his parents put forth the proposition as they could not afford it on their own. They also stipulated that they would be understanding if the children refused.

Here is what he ended up doing. Although he was able to come up with the money he would have preferred not to. If things did not go well it would mean him having to work another 3-5 years. The money was supplied equally by himself and another sibling and their name was also put on the title. A contract was drawn up for repayment and the parents wills were changed to give the 2 'lending' children the property in the event of both parents death if money was still owed. This was done as compensation for the interest free loan and to alleviate worries about a possible loss in value of the property. I should note that another sibling refused to go along with this deal. It is also my understanding that once the loan is repaid in full the parents would be changing the will back to have all assets divided evenly amongst the children.

Perhaps something similar could be done. I think in this situation it is critical to have a proper understanding and good communication with all parties involved including parents, siblings etc. Furthermore, an arrangement like this has to be in writing IMO. If they aren't willing to understand the need for you to give yourself a little protection for your sacrifice then you might as well consider it a gift.

I hope things turn out well for you. You are definitely between a rock and a hard place.

[the-royal-mail]

Very interesting situation. I think I might have to agree with the other posters. But the main thing I disagree with is the assertion that you somehow owe them something for raising you. If they have convinced you to believe that line of thinking, reconsider now.

Do you have kids? If so, why do you have kids? Did you do it to satisfy them and do a favour to an as-yet unborn child? Is that why people have kids?

I do understand the desire to help your parents but they should not be splurging at your expense. $300K is an enormous amount of money by any measure. Their request is unreasonable and it is unfair. At the same time, YOU need to be firm and tell them no.

Period, end of sentence.

[Jon_Snow]

If my parents were in dire need of it, I would come up with the money... but for the reasons the OP outlined, it seems pretty outrageous to me. The cultural reasons for doing it must indeed be powerful for the OP to be even considering it.

[drip99]

All the advice you have been given has been very good.

Mine is a "protection" advice:

From someone who gave "a lot" of money to a relative and got screwed.....please seek legal advice.

However, if you have a few million in the bank and happy with your current lifestyle.....who cares...do it.

[jamesbe]

Glad I'm not the only one confused here. I understand that some cultures have these beliefs and I respect that. But from what I thought I understood, the culture / belief is that the first child takes care of the parents. That's cool, but I didn't think it meant you treat the like a king and give them things they can't afford but don't need to survive. Helping them live is one thing, this seems absurd to me.

This is the first time they splurge and they want to do it on your dime? Also retirement is usually a time to downsize, odd indeed.

[Karen]

humble_pie, you're right in assuming that I wasn't aware of causalien's background and that of his parents. It does, perhaps, partially explain the parents' attitude, but it doesn't change my views of the situation. They are living in Canada; he is saving and investing for a retirement in Canada and he's the one who will have to live with the consequences if this "loan" to his parents doesn't work out as they plan. Nobody has a "right" to live beyond their means at the expense of other people, in this case their child, and it is completely ridiculous for the parents to buy a huge mansion for just the two of them when they return to their country of origin, unless they can afford to do it on their own.

Another thing I've been thinking about is that Causalien obviously doesn't really want to do this, or he would have just done it without asking for advice here. And that alone tells me he shouldn't do it. My guess is that he wants us to talk him out of it. No parent has the right to "blackmail" their child to put their whole financial future at great risk in order that the parents can fulfill an unrealistic dream ... or to allow the parents to go back to their country of origin and "show off" their wealth, which, in this case, wouldn't really be theirs.

Change of subject: hp, I'm not familiar with the author you mention, Wayson Choy, but I will look for some of his books next time I'm at the library. Thanks for the recommendation. (Actually, I may buy one at Chapter's instead; I'm a bit leery of our public libraries these days because several of them in Vancouver, Burnaby and New Westminster have reported finding bed bugs in some of their books! Yuck. I returned some books on Friday, but for the first time ever, I didn't borrow any, even though our Surrey branches haven't had the problem, at least up until now.)

[Sherlock]

Another vote for Don't do it! If you were worth several million and 300k meant little to you, then maybe...

[ddkay]

Can't they just sell their present home & rent something more modest while their dream mansion is under construction? If it doesn't work out they still have enough rent money to last the rest of their lives

[humble_pie]

karen my book group read wayson choy's The Jade Peony a couple years ago. It was his first novel & remains the best of his 3 books, i believe.

the other 2 are a novel that continues the saga of the Chen family in vancouver and his own childhood memoir.

to my surprise i found that the quality deteriorated in the 2 later books. Jade Peony grew out of a short story that choy wrote while an undergrad at UBC. Many years later, Carol Shields, during a summer session that she taught at UBC, encouraged choy to turn his short story into the full-blown novel that we know as Jade Peony. It's the one to read !

[crazyjackcsa]

Dear Dad:

Remeber when I wanted that really cool action figure with the Kung Fu grip for my 10th birthday? You said we couldn't afford it. I was sad, but understood.

Shoe's on the other foot now old man.

Signed,

Loving Son.

[Berubeland]

I was thinking I hear a wish in there for a good relationship with your parents. For whatever reason your relationship has been damaged and your parents are seemingly offering you a way to buy their affections or "repair" the relationship by giving them this money.

Problem is that this backward manipulation is not likely to work, I hear that longing... a longing I also feel. The underlying cause for the break in the relationship is still there as well as the pain. No doubt you'll be a hero for a day or so.

My idea is that even if you buy them the land, it will be in a foreign country that you admit you will not visit. How will this achieve your goal of getting closer to them?

Honestly if you do this, I seriously doubt it will change the relationship and you'll be extremely angry at yourself for doing it. It is hard but accepting that your parents and you just don't get along even though you want it differently is the way to go, and you'll still have your money.

There's no doubt that they'll freak out and punish you for saying no. This is their choice. I think it's a dangerous precedent to say yes to the manipulation. The more you say yes, the worse it becomes when you do say no. I imagine that this is what led to the relationship problems you currently have.

Furthermore, getting old is no excuse for living beyond your means. It doesn't even make sense to saddle your mother with a large cleaning project at her age. Big houses are expensive...

[andrewf]

I think this kind of guilt trip to put on a child is pretty shitty behaviour all-around. $300k is a lot to ask, especially when it is to be used to live extravagently.

[marina628]

My friend is from Pakistan , her husband's family just called them about a month ago to make a ridiculous request for a new home for the parents.Truthfully the younger siblings want the house but using the parents.Her husband called his dad who is 84 and asked him what is the situation , his dad told him he needs a higher toilet and some grab bars installed in his existing home.The parents want no part of a new house and happy with their small 'village house' .This story not related to the loan but imagine once this beautiful house is there for the extended family to use..
Ask yourself what will happen when the parents move and die?will you be able to sell the house and convert it back into cash?Or will you have other family members who will use this house as their own.If you do not want to loan full amount , why not just tell the parents you do not have this amount of cash and the bank won't give it to you.Maybe agree to pay them some money each month to help with expenses if you feel you must do something.
I bought my parents a new car last year which was $29,100 including the tax ,that was a huge gesture for me to do for them and they did not want me to do it .I cannot even imagine my parents asking me for this sort of money ,very happy they do not want a mansion in their retirement :)

[Karen]

That was my point, too, Marina - in our minds no loving, unselfish parents would ask that of their child, no matter what their cultural background is. And, even worse, these parents have apparently made it clear that their relationship with their child depended on his agreeing to their demands. That is blackmail, pure and simple.

I fully realize that some cultures expect adult children to help their elderly parents, perhaps more than some others do, but to support them if they need it is one thing; it is quite another for the parents to expect the child to help them live in luxury if they can't afford to do it on their own. Even though our North American culture doesn't have the same "formal" requirements in that respect, most of us would help out our parents in that situation because we want to, not because it's required of us. But we certainly would not agree to lend them $300,000 to buy a house that they couldn't afford and didn't need.

Having said that, I also realize that cultural expectations can cause conflict in the mind of a child who has been raised in that culture. I am reminded of something that happened when my husband died of kidney failure. The urologist, a wonderful doctor of Chinese background, was explaining the situation and our options to me, and told me that he considered the outlook very dire, but pointed out that there was one last thing we could try; he didn't think it would make much of a difference and it would just prolong my husband's suffering, probably for not much gain. I asked him if he would choose to try the treatment if the patient was one of his parents, and he replied by saying, "To answer you honestly, I have to tell you that I have two conflicting opinions; from a professional point of view, my answer is an unequivocal "no" but, as the eldest child of a Chinese family and the only one with a medical background, my siblings would never forgive me if I didn't do everything I could to keep our parent alive as long as possible." I really respected him for admitting to the dilemma he would have in that situation, and it was a good lesson for me about how cultural expectations influence the decisions of even extremely intelligent people like this doctor.

(By the way, I was spared the decison in my husband's case because he died within a few hours of my conversation with the urologist.)

[OhGreatGuru]

... It's for their retirement home. Yes it's a mansion. Their final splurge in their life so to speak. We grew up poor and this is the first time they splurged.

...

From your description, their demand is based on want, not need. Tell them you can't afford to subsidize their extravagance. Be prepared to live with the resulting histrionics.

[financialnoob]

LOL crazyjacks. And in a way, it's true. The OP can't really afford to do this since it would require a major lifestyle change. It's not just about the money, but the changes that the OP would have to undertake to accommodate this. It would not be just a simple exchange of money, but would affect the OP every single day for the rest of their life.

The siblings mentioned they'd be willing to help if shit goes down, but why not help beforehand? Why does the whole initial expense have to fall on the OP? And it's easy to promise to help later...because that's later. Don't be surprised if some "emergencies" come up so they can't really help like they said they would.

I think the OP is trying to buy love, and my experience with that is that it doesn't work too well.

I'd also think that any personal relationship that requires $300K to sustain is not a relationship worth sustaining, even if it is family.

The OP should state simply that they can't afford to do it. If the parents can't even understand the tremendous amount of stress and pressure this non-essential request would cause their own flesh and blood, then you don't need to be on close terms with these people.

[Plugging Along]

I totally understand what the OP is going through. Growing up in Canada, with very traditional parents from another culture does pose challenges. In my parents culture, it is expected that the children take care of the aging parents. As the youngest in my family, I do not have to deal with these requests very often. However, my older siblings both do, and we share the 'burden' together in various capacities.

We don't have the best relationship but do feel there is an obligation based on the numerous sacrifices they made for us growing up. My parents are generally frugal, and could easily have a higher lifestyle if they chose to sell their investments. However, culturally, they are saving their investments, and want to leave them to us. In turn, they don't have alot for the extras. Both my siblings are both very well off, and lending (giving) my parents money has little impact on them.

Honestly, if your parents request will have undue hardship on you, then tell them that you would be willing to do x (something more reasonable), or have your siblings all anti up equally. When my siblings have these large requests that they do not want to do, we decide to all go in together or not at all, this way my parents are annoyed with us equally.

[Square Root]

Sounds like we have a "values discepancy" here. North American values would generally not support such a "loan" . This position was eloquently put forth by Karen. Obviously, Causalian comes from a different cultural background where such a thing would be more acceptable or even expected. Tough spot to be in. Transition generations often have these issues. Good luck- don't envy you.

[financialnoob]

PA: Fair enough, though I would argue that there's a significant difference between taking care of someone, and lending them $300K you can't really afford so they can buy a mansion in a foreign country.

I like the idea of a compromise with the siblings chipping in up-front, not promises for help later. Not sure what number would be okay with the OP so they don't have to modify their lifestyle, but something like say all siblings combine equally for $150-$200K, with the rest to come from the bank if the entire balance is too much.

[the-royal-mail]

Can we please have some feedback from the OP, given all the thoughtful responses that have been posted?

[rookie]

if i were you and i decided to do it (which would most probably be the case), i would at least ensure that my name was in the title and no one else can claim any part of it as inheritance or whatever.

they want to live in such a house or a lifestyle, then fine. but no reason it should be in their name.

[Karen]

I don't understand at all why some of you are suggesting things he should do if he's going to proceed to lend the money, such as that his siblings should contribute, or he should ensure that his name is on the title, etc. All these suggestions are irrelevant. He should not be doing it, period. What would we all think if the situation were reversed - if it was Causalien who was demanding that his parents lend him $300,000 that they couldn't afford in order that he could buy a house he didn't need? We would be horrified at his selfishness and, if he continued to pressure them about it and made it clear that his continuing love for them depended on their doing as he asked, we would consider it abuse of his parents. This situation, when it comes right down to it, is not any different. He owes his parents love and respect, and he owes them help with living expenses if they are in need, but, even considering the different cultural background, he does not owe them a lifestyle that neither he nor they can afford and that the parents do not need.

[rookie]

I don't understand at all why some of you are suggesting things he should do if he's going to proceed to lend the money, such as that his siblings should contribute, or he should ensure that his name is on the title, etc. All these suggestions are irrelevant. He should not be doing it, period. What would we all think if the situation were reversed - if it was Causalien who was demanding that his parents lend him $300,000 that they couldn't afford in order that he could buy a house he didn't need? We would be horrified at his selfishness and, if he continued to pressure them about it and made it clear that his continuing love for them depended on their doing as he asked, we would consider it abuse of his parents. This situation, when it comes right down to it, is not any different. He owes his parents love and respect, and he owes them help with living expenses if they are in need, but, even considering the different cultural background, he does not owe them a lifestyle that neither he nor they can afford and that the parents do not need.

i guess its tough to explain. in some cultures, this is completely acceptable in either direction. i have seen instances where the kids goof up and go bankrupt and then their parents start their second tenure of parenting again :).

back home, i still have friends who are married and have their own kids, but still "surrender" their salaries to their parents (after keeping a part of it for their expenses). i guess there is no concept of mine and yours between parents and kids. in fact, it took me some time (few years) to comprehend that my parents were not part of my family in the north american sense.

at the end of the day, its money we are talking about. it comes, it goes. buys us a few toys that only gives us fleeting pleasure. but then, i do not want to get too philosophical...

[rookie]

This situation, when it comes right down to it, is not any different. He owes his parents love and respect, and he owes them help with living expenses if they are in need, but, even considering the different cultural background, he does not owe them a lifestyle that neither he nor they can afford and that the parents do not need.

but then i also completely agree with this. cause's case is a little too extreme. in all the cases i have seen, its parents making the extra sacrifice to allow kids to indulge a bit. i haven't seen a case where the parents would like to indulge while their kids are sweating it out. and after getting exposed to the NA culture, i can totally understand your frustration.

[Plugging Along]

Unless one has actually experienced it, the cultural ties felt are difficult to explain. Adult children are expected to make sacrifices to help their parents, even if it means hardship for the child. Usually, it's not the case of the child sacrificing so the parents can live it up.

In my family, being that I have not achieved complete financial security, I see it less, but hear about if from my siblings all the time. My families litmus test is that is if I am asked to split the costs and refuse, then it definitely not a need. My parents wanted my siblings to pAy up $50k for a party in their honor. Though my siblings could easily afford it, they felt that it should be split between all of the kids. I was just starting my family and going on mat leave. It was an unreasonable request in my mind, so I told them how much I would be willing to spend for my share, and offered non monetary things such as organizing the event. We, as siblings talked to my parents together, and told them to scale it down. In the end, it was under $15k, and I did not pay.

My point is that sometimes parents come up with really unreasonable requests, but that does not negate the fact there are still family tie that are more important than money. If one can, they could try and come up with alternatives that are acceptable, or share the burden with all the kids.

If it was me, I would probably offer to pay for smaller place AND it would have to split with my siblings. Another option might be sending the parents back very few years. That's what my siblings do. They pay for a trip for my parents every couple of years. Usually when the weather isn't the greatest, so my parents come back happy they were only visiting.

[jamesbe]

Very odd and difficult to understand for sure. My parents would never ask for money even if they need it!

[OhGreatGuru]

Advice to OP: It's time for a little "Cultural" revolution.

PS. 1) Loving parents do not resort to emotional blackmail to extort a $300K "loan" from their child.
2) Good luck collecting on this "loan" if it's in a foreign jursidiction. It would be hard enough to sue your parents if they were Canadian residents.
3) Respect is earned, it is not a birthright.

[Square Root]

Advice to OP: It's time for a little "Cultural" revolution.

PS. 1) Loving parents do not resort to emotional blackmail to extort a $300K "loan" from their child.
2) Good luck collecting on this "loan" if it's in a foreign jursidiction. It would be hard enough to sue your parents if they were Canadian residents.
3) Respect is earned, it is not a birthright.

This is a good description of North American values relating to this situation. Unfortunately Cause is not working under the same set of values. this disconnect in values makes this discussion difficult for him and hard to understand for us. His children will have an easier time no doubt.

[Causalien]

It's because I am still debating internally that I haven't posted.

Thanks plugging ALong for explaining and comfirming some of my suspicion on the cultural differences.

The strangest thing about this decision is that calling and talking with relatives/childhood friends in said country, this sounds like the silliest question to them. From their point of view: "Of course you should do it, you have enough money, why would you let your parents pay the bank interest instead of keeping it in the family."

For the record, I am the richest of my siblings and I am the only one living in North America, which is why I am approached for money. Unlike what most of you think, I am not the eldest. I would assume my siblings will be the one to actually take care of the daily problems in that country when things happen for when they couldn't take care of their own daily functions.

I can assure you all that this is the first time they splurged. My mom still washes dishes by hand in cold water to save money out of habit.

Yes, my parents and I were never close. I noticed the difference the first time I spent Christmas at a friend's house. Yes, for them it probably has something to do with appearances. Yes I secretly hate my dad. And yes, I am posting because I am trying to find a way out of this, but I also want to make an effort to change the relationship. Mind you, the siblings reaction were: "WHy did you even ask this question" which hints at the potential to have my siblings hate me if I don't do it.

Let's get philosophical for a moment. Because at the same time, I am fighting with these life philosophies. If your life is shit, does it mean that you don't make an effort to change it? What is money in the end. Is life worth living if you finish your life with loads of money but no relationships? Which brought me back to a question I've asked myself before. What is blood relation? I know of a guy with the same background as me, who've cut all ties to his parents because of some other cultural thing (He abided strickly to the American value). I can't say that it is definitely what I want.

I am veering towards having my name on the title of the house as probably the most sensible compromise in this case.

[Four Pillars]

Good luck with your decision Causalien. I don't envy this situation.

This sort of thing is a good argument for not broadcasting how well you are doing financially to friends and family.

[rookie]

i totally understand. few years ago, this would have come across as not only the silliest, but also the most selfish question that can arise. also, from where i come from, the same is expected the moment anyone is in NA, even if he is sweating it out at MCD.

and yes, money comes, money goes. parents happen only once. to give a simple analogy, i could never think of myself driving a porsche (even if i earned that lifestyle completely out of my hardwork) while my parents back home cannot even afford a simple car or rely purely on public transit. we HAVE to be on the same fiscal standards, irrespective of whether money flows from them to me or from me to them.

my childhood buddy, a very dear friend to me, sacrificed his entire medical career when his father suffered an untimely stroke ten years ago, to take care of him and take on his family's responsibility. he started working night and day, took loans, paid for his sisters graduation in medicine, paid for her wedding. he is now married to a gyno and has a daughter himself and runs a small clinic. to this day, he still takes care of his dad personally and doesnt bat an eyelid when i talk to him of what his potential career could have been. he is proud of what he has done and would not have chosen any other option. he has set the bar so high for our circle of friends, its unimaginable.

life is a lot better when people think of giving than taking...

[andrewf]

^ But the money is not to keep his parents out of poverty. The money is to build a luxury home that they don't credibly need.

[rookie]

but the money is not down the drain. he can be on the title and its another form of investment... depends on how u look at it.

by the way, i understand the NA culture now and have grown to accept it. so if cause was a good friend of mine, i would support him, whatever decision he makes.

[OhGreatGuru]

There are ways in which this loan could be secured, or at least formalized in a written contract. But I suspect parents will be offended by the idea. (as in "How can you not trust me, your own father?") Trying to convince them that it isn't about trust, but common sense financial risk management won't be easy. If parents get run over by a bus tomorrow, trying to collect without security (such as joint title) will difficult.

[Karen]

Yes, my parents and I were never close. I noticed the difference the first time I spent Christmas at a friend's house. Yes, for them it probably has something to do with appearances. Yes I secretly hate my dad. And yes, I am posting because I am trying to find a way out of this, but I also want to make an effort to change the relationship. Mind you, the siblings reaction were: "WHy did you even ask this question" which hints at the potential to have my siblings hate me if I don't do it.
Causealien, before you go ahead with this, I beg you to give really strong consideration to the question of whether agreeeing to your parents' request will do anything to improve your relationship with them. Frankly, I doubt very much that it will. We cannot buy love - ever - it simply cannot be done.

It's none of my business, of course, but as an older person who wishes I had known earlier in my life many of the lessons I learned later, I have come to realize that there are times when it's important to put our own wishes first rather than make decisions based on what others think we should do. That's not always the case, and it's important to recognize the difference. For instance, if your parents were in need I can understand that you would feel obligated to help them even if you would rather not have to do that.

Another question you should consider: is it truly your parents who want this house, or is it mainly your father whom you admit you secretly hate? I can't see a woman who washes dishes in cold water to save money getting much pleasure out of living in a mansion. If I'm right and it's mainly your father, read my first paragraph again - you are not going to either win his love or change your feelings about him by agreeing to his request.


Let's get philosophical for a moment. Because at the same time, I am fighting with these life philosophies. If your life is shit, does it mean that you don't make an effort to change it? What is money in the end. Is life worth living if you finish your life with loads of money but no relationships? Which brought me back to a question I've asked myself before. What is blood relation? I know of a guy with the same background as me, who've cut all ties to his parents because of some other cultural thing (He abided strickly to the American value). I can't say that it is definitely what I want.

Certainly you should try to change your life if you're not happy with it, but how will giving in to the demands of a man you dislike improve your lilfe? In my opinion, it would do more harm than good because at some level you would resent him. Family ties are undoubtedly important, but so are our feelings of self-respect and not allowing ourselves to be used. I don't know your age or whether you are married and have children of your own. If not, keep in mind that those are the relationships that will become most imporant to you - the ones that will last for many years after your parents are gone. I'm not suggesting that your relationship with your parents isn't important, but you cannot force them to feel closer to you. If it can't be done, that's all the more reason to work on developing ties of love and affection with a spouse or children (present or future).

As for the question you're pondering about whether life is worth living if you finish it with loads of money but no relationships, unfortunately the answer is not so simple. The practical answer is that we don't go straight from developing the important relationships in our lives to the end of our lives - we have many years of living to finance in between. Don't get so absorbed in the philosophical question that you overlook the realities of your life.

I know I've had a lot to say about your original post, and I can understand if you think I'm underestimating your problem, but I trust that you know my advice is based on what I think is best for you. I'm saying to you that there are times in our lives when it's the right thing to do to put ourselves first.

Best of luck, Causalien. I truly hope you can come to terms with this question in a way that will allow you to feel that you've made the right decision.

[the-royal-mail]

Thanks for coming back and giving us your thoughts. I appreciate that, though from the way you are wording your posts it sounds to me you are 99% decided on doing this.

This is a really bad idea. Regardless of your culture.

Is there anything any of us can say to make you change your mind?

[mind_business]

but the money is not down the drain. he can be on the title and its another form of investment... depends on how u look at it.

by the way, i understand the NA culture now and have grown to accept it. so if cause was a good friend of mine, i would support him, whatever decision he makes.

I seriously doubt he will get his name on the title. From what I've read so far, it sounds like his parents have high expectations of their son, and would likely be offended if he suggested he be on the title. This in essence would mean the house would not be theirs. It also sounds like he's trying to be the 'good son' which would likely mean he'd give in to their requests.

I understand different cultures have different customs and expectations. However, Karen is absolutely correct. Giving money does not buy love.

[marina628]

My friend's religion does not allow to pay interest if you can avoid it.It is
amazing the shell game she plays with MBNA CREDIT CARDS .They also have siblings 'back home ' who call and ask for money all the time and even worst for them to marry their kids to their cousins to try to get them in Canada.I will not mention the country or the religion as it does not matter but IMO you should tell your parents you cannot possibly mortgage your future in Canada for this house.Is it possible you can pay for them to go back home for an extended visit ,maybe rent a place there for them for 3-6 months as a compromise and try to have them be happy living close to you here in Canada.
If they have give me all or nothing attitude then give them nothing.

[$1600 Gold by 2011]

Clearly you intend to compromise. I suggest making them get a loan and pay the down payment and/or interest. If it is simply a liquidity issue and they did intend to pay you back, they shouldn't have an issue paying back the bank for the principal amount.

Otherwise, you could pay for the lot but only one of a reasonable size. No one needs a mansion, especially your "very old" parents. In this case and in the case that you'd pay for the full mansion lot, you should get your name on the title at minimum. Don't let them take from you without compromising. Sure, money isn't everything but you mentioned having to return to a mind-numbing job. Are the additional year(s) spent at this job to recoup the $300k really worth it all? In my culture, elderly parents typically move in with one of the kids or vice versa. I've never heard of anyone in a similar situation to yours.

My dad put some people through school back home but if they asked for money for a fifth year of a four year program, they were cut off. Cover their needs, not their wants!

Speaking of cultures, check out the documentary "Last Train Home" on youtube for an interesting glimpse into the lives of a chinese family in modern day China.

[Plugging Along]

The strangest thing about this decision is that calling and talking with relatives/childhood friends in said country, this sounds like the silliest question to them. From their point of view: "Of course you should do it, you have enough money, why would you let your parents pay the bank interest instead of keeping it in the family."



I'm not sure if you were born here, or in your parents country. It's actually not strange at all when you think about it. In many countries, especially non first world countries, often wealth is considered family wealth. This is all about in many of these countries the only way a person has a chance of surviving and prospering is to work as a family unit. They share the sorrows and hardships, and the fortunes (if there is one). It's a really complicated thing that many don't understand in NA. I was born here, but have spent a lot of time researching and trying to understand my very traditional family.

THe family values that many of these cultures run very deep. I have heard people talk about other cultures in having the grandparents watch the kids, and how wonderful it is, etc. There are also many other expectations to this family unit.

You shouldn't be surprised that people from that country think it is your duty to do so. This is how the culture functions. They do not neccessarily have the same influences of NA culture. Just like here, so many people are saying you shouldn't do it because the parents shouldn't expect so much, etc. That is a very NA point of view.




For the record, I am the richest of my siblings and I am the only one living in North America, which is why I am approached for money. Unlike what most of you think, I am not the eldest. I would assume my siblings will be the one to actually take care of the daily problems in that country when things happen for when they couldn't take care of their own daily functions.



I think it's actually a myth that many do not understand, including those in the culture sometimes. The idea often is that the oldest has the burden to bare because they are oldest, and they are the first opportunity to 'make it'. Their is the highest expection because as the oldest, that if something ever happened to the parents, that the oldest would be in the positions to take care of the family. Usually, it does end up that the oldest is the one with the duty to take care of the family because there often isn't a huge difference in the younger kids. However, as the kids age, and become self sufficient adults, if there is someone who is substantially better off, they they will often take the finacial burden.

In your case, just by being in NA, I would guess that you are viewed as being much better off than anyone in your parents home country. The fact that you have to pay much more to live here, and things are much more expensive doesn't matter because you are probably viewed as having the most opportunity relatively to your siblings. They may perceive that even though they are asking alot, you at least have the opportunity to make the money here.




Yes, my parents and I were never close. I noticed the difference the first time I spent Christmas at a friend's house. Yes, for them it probably has something to do with appearances. Yes I secretly hate my dad. And yes, I am posting because I am trying to find a way out of this, but I also want to make an effort to change the relationship. Mind you, the siblings reaction were: "WHy did you even ask this question" which hints at the potential to have my siblings hate me if I don't do it.

Let's get philosophical for a moment. Because at the same time, I am fighting with these life philosophies. If your life is shit, does it mean that you don't make an effort to change it? What is money in the end. Is life worth living if you finish your life with loads of money but no relationships? Which brought me back to a question I've asked myself before. What is blood relation? I know of a guy with the same background as me, who've cut all ties to his parents because of some other cultural thing (He abided strickly to the American value). I can't say that it is definitely what I want.

.

You really need to determine why you are considering this (not that you want to). If you think this will change the relationship for the positive, I can guess it probably will not. The reason is, this is just expected, and you don't get 'brownie' points for what is expected from you. I will admit often my siblings and I do not give money to our parents because we want a better relationship, but rather we do it out of duty. I recognize it for what it is, and expect nothing more. I do also face having to say no sometimes, and to be honest, for me often it's easier just to pay up. The few where I did say no because I really really against it, and I wasn't willing to sacrifice my new family, my siblings di side with me, but they are also in NA now.

To your philosophical debate, there's no problem trying to change your life, but in this case doing it may not actually provide a positive change. I do see not doing could provide a negative change. This is a really personal question that only you can answer (and even you may not know the answer). To be honest, when I have put my foot down on the outrageous requests, I have done so with the understanding that it could cut off ties. I had also explained my point, and that my intent is not to cut ties, but if that's all they want, then I'm willing to do it. To this date, my family hasn't cut ties yet.

I know I have put on alot of assumptions based on my experiences, and they may not hold in your case. My apoligizes if I've projected too much on you. I am just trying to provide insight on what I have had to wrestle with over the years.

[Karen]

Plugging Along, I think many of us here understand, at least as much as is possible with our traditional North American backgrounds, the difference in cultural expectations, but the difference between this situation and that of several friends of mine with Asian backgrounds is that the parents' expectations are completely unreasonable and far beyond their needs. I have a good friend (just plain Canadian) who is married to a civil engineer from India, and she is very accepting of his feelings of obligation to his family in India. For many years her husband regularly sent money to his parents to save for a dowry for his sister, with my friend's full blessing. Even though they both disapproved in principle, she realized that in their culture, it would make a huge difference to his sister's life, and she was pleased that they could afford to help. I have another friend from Hong Kong who for many years has been sending money to her parents with the consent of her non-Chinese husband. But in both cases, the families' expectations are reasonable, and they value the help and let their children know that it is appreciated. I don't have the feeling that that would be the case here.

Causalien is not so much being asked for help as he's being emotionally blackmailed to help provide an outrageously expensive and unreasonably luxurious home for his parents in exchange for love and acceptance, and I honestly don't think he should give in to that. He has said that he doesn't want to do it, and I know it will take a lot of strength for him to say "No," but I think that deep down, he will think more of himself if he gathers the strength to do that.

On a more practical note, he suggests that his parents are very elderly - what happens if they die before the loan is repaid, even assuming that they do plan to repay it? Can his siblings be trusted to repay the money to him or might they think that he's rich and probably doesn't need it as much as they do? This is all assuming that his name isn't on the title, which I have a feeling his father may not agree to. Once again I repeat that, unless Causalien is wealthy and can afford to lose $300,000 (which he has said isn't the case), I think the whole thing is a very bad idea, and I sincerely hope he says "No."

[Causalien]

The anguish I am going through right now... One day, I am going to look back and laugh at this and be able to dispense some good advice to the next person doing the same thing.

This also explains why I am spending so much time on this forum. NOT discussing this. Karen is right and PA is right. Today I just had a huge epiphany as well. All of the deductions that you guys made are right. So it comes down to choosing because both sides are right. 4pillar is right, though it wasn't boasting, sharing the income information has been a tradition in the family when each of us get new jobs. Definitely report less than you make.

Anyway to update you guys. I have my name on the title. My siblings have been maintaining my "head" in the country so that I have a legal active identity. (Paying medicare and identity etc). This at no cost to me and I just found this out. There are numerous other examples where my siblings sacrificed for me without saying anything. We are very close, so this at least I know is true.

Financially, I have insulated myself enough so in the worst case scenario, I won't be too hurt like I originally thought. It's the emotional part that is now irrevocable. So many skeletons have came out of the closet from this event and it'll take time to understand what things mean. I realized a few things about my parents, but my conscious is refusing to believe it. See, it's blocking it now. Just want to get it over with.

Thank you for all your support. Excuse me if I sound a bit harsh while discussing other topics. I am not in the mood to make sure my messages don't offend people.

[Karen]

It appears that you have made your decision, Causalien, and that must be a huge relief to you. You have listened to and considered our opinions and expressed your appreciation for them, but in the end, the decision had to be the one that you could best live with. It's obvious that this has been a very stressful and upsetting time in your life with respect to your relationship with your parents, but, to look at the positive side, you have learned how supportive your siblings have been of you and that seems to have brought you even closer to them.

I truly hope that this decision works out well for you and that you will be able to look back on it years from now as having been the right one.

[financialnoob]

I believe that was the perfect compromise and middle ground solution Causalien. I can only imagine what a difficult decision it was. I often find myself battling the cultural norms of my parents vs. my North American upbringing, and quite often they conflict. I think you handled it with amazing grace, certainly better than I tend to do.

I hope your parents appreciate and understand just how big of a deal this was. I know they didn't get exactly what they wanted, but they got what they felt they needed (you could refer them to that old Rolling Stones song), and at a considerable cost to you and your lifestyle. If that isn't understood or appreciated, I'm not sure what else could get through to them. I hope it has made some difference in your relationship with them though.

[umpatan]

It's one thing to be a loyal, loving son; it's quite another for you to be expected to take on financial risks that rightly belong to your parents. They have no right to ask that of you.[/QUOTE]

Um actually it would depend on multiple factors, such as if he is living at home paying no rent and had the opportunity to save all that money contributing nothing to household expenses, and having no spouse nor children. If he was able to save 300,000 because he lived at home with his parents and did not have to pay rent for all his life, then if his father said to his son you owe me this one, and one is still living at home at the age of 45, then daddy might just be right. Now had he kicked your ass out at the age of 18, and told you to make your own way in life, then, you do not owe him to lend 300,000k.

[Rusty O'Toole]

Let's look at this from a fresh perspective. How would you feel about this deal if it was a purely business matter? Suppose a stranger offered to sell you the same piece of property for $300,000?

Is it a good deal at the price? Is the country stable politically and financially, so your investment is safe? Would you consider it a good investment?

If it is a good investment why not buy the property and give your parents a life lease on the land for whatever you consider fair? Market rent if they can afford it, or a smaller amount if money is tight but at least enough to cover your expenses such as taxes and mortgage payment.

Let them build their retirement home and enjoy it worry free. When they no longer need the property it will come back to you.

On the other hand if the deal sucks and is guaranteed to lose money, or put you at risk of losing the whole $300,000 that is just too much to ask (unless you are so rich $300,000 is pocket change).

[Causalien]

Hi Rusty,

I think we can give this issue a rest. We are at the post-mortem period where both side are feeling out the new situation we are in. If any big problem eventually crop up, I'll let you guys know. But mainly, it has been a lot of talks with accountants and lawyers.

The reason why your suggestion will not work for me has been explained before. My money is to buy the land. Their money is to build the house. That's how much it costs. The exact detail of what goes where and the legal jargons have to be left out of this forum due to my own paranoia of a monitored Internet in the future. I hope you understand.

Umpatan: Haha, sadly I wasn't that fortunate. Moved out at 18 and never looked back. Having to briefly interact with my parents daily to help them emigrate is enough to make me understand that I can never live with them. My own need for freedom and their expectation of a obedient son clashed spectacularly.

P.S. I do envy some of my co-workers who do though. They get to go out every night and drink themselves silly, while I was trying to save up payment for the mortgage. Good times. Never again.